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Dans Club
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February 4, 2017
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I enjoy reading the historical facts posted in the side bar over yonder. ======>>
But I'm curious where they come from, not who does it or how they get posted, but what makes them historical rather than opinion?
Rimfire
"LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO SPEND IT WITH AN UGLY GUN!" - John Taffin
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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This is information from several sources (either current or archived) from Dan Wesson insiders, family members, and other vetted sources.
For example, I have possession of a "special" DW Serial Number listing of custom S/N's from the 15-2 (and later) era that includes the name and address of the original purchaser and the FFL that handled the transfer. Over the years I have been able to offer information on some pretty interesting guns. Maybe the coolest one is "Celtic-17" purchased as a gift for Boston Celtics John "Hondo" Havilcek", Celtics jersey number 17.
Another very interesting 15-26VH with "Ipanna-1" would be a remarkable find.
Any DWF member stumbling across a DW revolver with a mostly "initials" S/N should contact me for more info.
Just stuff a couple of us have accumulated over the years
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
April 25, 2008
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Rimfire said
But I'm curious where they come from, not who does it or how they get posted, but what makes them historical rather than opinion?
Rimfire
Research.
The Savantist
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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Still a good question, thanks for asking.
1) I know that Jody has had conversations with Wesson Family Members, and received a lot of info from them
2) I have had similar discussions with Wesson Family members
3) Over the years I have talked with one of the early Dan Wesson executives who provided me with some great insight on the early /formative years, along with some really great custom S/N infogood
4) Some of our Members that have a connection with the Elgin Gates Family
FYI- Since it's really in my backyard, I have driven past the old Monson property a few times and seen seen it evolve
This is not a response that gives a perfect answer, there is a lot we will never know, and we have the responsibility to gather the good, factual information that we can.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
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Dans Club
DWF Supporters
February 4, 2017
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Thanks for all the answers...
The thing that really puzzles me is why the ATF doesn't allow access to the records? Hell, I'd take whatever time they'd give me to sort through those babies! I don't want them for myself but I'd sure take lots of notes.
Rimfire
"LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO SPEND IT WITH AN UGLY GUN!" - John Taffin
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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Rimfire said
Thanks for all the answers...The thing that really puzzles me is why the ATF doesn't allow access to the records? Hell, I'd take whatever time they'd give me to sort through those babies! I don't want them for myself but I'd sure take lots of notes.
Rimfire
Help me understand this question.
You want an Agency of the US Government ( First Epic Fail) to locate paper records (Second Epic Fail). seized decades ago (Third Epic Fail) from a relatively small firearms manufacturer that had already experienced several changes in corporate leadership/ownership?
I hope you know that I'm just funnin' you here. The records almost certainly exist.
Hell will freeze over before anyone ever sees them.
On the other hand, if anyone wants to know where you had dinner last Tuesday evening, what toppings you had on your pizza, how many beers you had, how much you tipped the server, and what route you followed on your drive home, almost any Federal agency (along with Google/Facebook/your credit card provider...) can locate that information instantly.
And the Truth Shall Set You Free?
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
May 12, 2009
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Steve said
Help me understand this question.
You want an Agency of the US Government ( First Epic Fail) to locate paper records (Second Epic Fail). seized decades ago (Third Epic Fail) from a relatively small firearms manufacturer that had already experienced several changes in corporate leadership/ownership?
I hope you know that I'm just funnin' you here. The records almost certainly exist.
Hell will freeze over before anyone ever sees them.
On the other hand, if anyone wants to know where you had dinner last Tuesday evening, what toppings you had on your pizza, how many beers you had, how much you tipped the server, and what route you followed on your drive home, almost any Federal agency (along with Google/Facebook/your credit card provider...) can locate that information instantly.
And the Truth Shall Set You Free?
Certainly the records exist. However, depending on how the various incarnations of Dan Wesson Firearms was handled, the older records may be with either the successor company or with ATF. When High Standard changed hands several times (4 different companies), as each new company became the manufacturer, the records were just passed along to the next company and the ATF did not receive the records until they closed in 1984. Note these were all paper records. ATF had now microfilmed the records (with some accidental omissions) I was able to obtain copies of the microfilm. It involved some time and effort and the cost of a viewer fro 16mm microfilm added to that cost. I think it was around $900 total around 1995.
If ATF has the records I suspect that they are now only available as microfilm. If the company has the records they are still probably paper. High Standard's records were nto well organized when ATF picked them up at the factory and a review of the records shows that they did not worry about that so some records and some pages of records are not where you would expect to find them. In the case.
I have spent considerable time reviewing and analyzing the High Standard records over the past 20 years or so. I still am not done. In High Standards case over its 52 years of life, there are 6 spools of film that address the serial number logs and 18 spools of film that are copies of invoices from 1967 onward. Each spool had around 8300 frames so there are over 200,000 frames (pages) to view. Sometimes the invoices need to be checked to find notes about specials not found in the serial number logs or to check what was actually shipped because the handwriting is not clear in the serial number log.
There are probably a million or more guns made for Sears, High standard and others that had no serial numbers (.22 rifles , shotguns, and center fire rifles) made before January 1, 1969 so the full story will probably never be known about the guns without the serial numbers.
If you want to pursue obtain a film copy of the records, I would suggest you enlist the aid of you senator. It took a while but that is the path I took. It was not quick or easy.
Counting each variation is very time consuming. I spent a few weeks counting the Dan Wesson made revolvers sold by High Standard which is a very small part of High Standards guns about 240 pages worth in the serial number log.
May 12, 2009
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Steve said
Help me understand this question.
You want an Agency of the US Government ( First Epic Fail) to locate paper records (Second Epic Fail). seized decades ago (Third Epic Fail) from a relatively small firearms manufacturer that had already experienced several changes in corporate leadership/ownership?
I hope you know that I'm just funnin' you here. The records almost certainly exist.
Hell will freeze over before anyone ever sees them.
On the other hand, if anyone wants to know where you had dinner last Tuesday evening, what toppings you had on your pizza, how many beers you had, how much you tipped the server, and what route you followed on your drive home, almost any Federal agency (along with Google/Facebook/your credit card provider...) can locate that information instantly.
And the Truth Shall Set You Free?
Rimfire said
Thanks for all the answers...The thing that really puzzles me is why the ATF doesn't allow access to the records? Hell, I'd take whatever time they'd give me to sort through those babies! I don't want them for myself but I'd sure take lots of notes.
Rimfire
I doubt they have a viewing public room for the microfilm records at the ATF records center in West Virginia.
Counting variations from the records will take more time that you think unless the total gun count is a lot smaller than I think. It took me a couple of weeks to count the Dan Wesson guns made for High Standard and that was in the comfort of my own home with my computer.
Just contact your senator and see if he can help you obtain film copies. You may need to file freedom of information act papers now. I did not need those forms when I got copies of the High Standard records in the mid 1990's.
Whatever you do will be a lot of work. More than you think.
Supporter
Dans Club
DWF Supporters
February 4, 2017
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Thank you very much, John for sharing your experiences and your time with us.
I'm familiar with your works, and I am sure there are many members of the DWF who appreciate your recent posts regarding the High Standard-Dan Wesson link.
My senator is very responsive, and dogged in his efforts and it sounds like a great place to start! I'm a senior citizen and have plenty of free time (maybe not so much of it as younger members) and I'll try to get the ball rolling.
Rimfire
"LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO SPEND IT WITH AN UGLY GUN!" - John Taffin
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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Rimfire said
Thank you very much, John for sharing your experiences and your time with us.I'm familiar with your works, and I am sure there are many members of the DWF who appreciate your recent posts regarding the High Standard-Dan Wesson link.
My senator is very responsive, and dogged in his efforts and it sounds like a great place to start! I'm a senior citizen and have plenty of free time (maybe not so much of it as younger members) and I'll try to get the ball rolling.
Rimfire
Please do not think that I am being obstructionist in this discussion. I would love to have this information available. If you have a connection that can get this ball rolling, please let me know what DWF can do to help.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
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Dans Club
DWF Supporters
February 4, 2017
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Well, I certainly know better than to make promises...but Chuck Grassley is pretty well known for championing causes such as this and I will call his office Monday to see what's what...and obstructionist never came to mind.
"LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO SPEND IT WITH AN UGLY GUN!" - John Taffin
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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Chuck Grassley is a sensible and responsible man, if he can help us get information that would be great.
I never knew you are an Iowa Guy. We lived in Davenport for three years (my job took us there) and our daughter is an Iowa baby.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
Supporter
Dans Club
DWF Supporters
February 4, 2017
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As promised, I started to telephone the office of Senator Chuck Grassley regarding the DW records in the possession of the ATF. In the midst of dialing I realized I would be dealing with bureaucratic staffers who might get the message screwed up.
So I found his official website and sent a written request for his help in locating what information is available and to help us access it for documentation. My thinking was, providing his office with the back-story to the CZ acquisition might help uncover things a simple phone call could not.
As I discover more...I will post what I learn for all to see.
Rimfire
"LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO SPEND IT WITH AN UGLY GUN!" - John Taffin
Supporter
Moderators
January 24, 2009
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Man, that would be SO cool if the DW records could finally be obtained! Rimfire, thank you for inquiring with your Senator about this, I hope you are successful in this endeavor.
February 16, 2016
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Rimfire said
I'll try to get the ball rolling.
This is a very worthwhile endeavor .. please let us know how we can help.
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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Rimfire said
Thanks for all the answers...The thing that really puzzles me is why the ATF doesn't allow access to the records? Hell, I'd take whatever time they'd give me to sort through those babies! I don't want them for myself but I'd sure take lots of notes.
Rimfire
OK, not to be stupid here (which we all know I am fully capable of), Why would ATF willingly invite anyone into what is likely a monumental clusterflop? (notice how I skirted DWF Rules 
?) What makes anyone think that this governmental agency can accurately reconstruct the records of a decades old non mainstream manufacturer that has now gone through through three (?) ownership changes? A year or so ago, I chatted at length with a Wesson family member. Somewhere there may be a buried storage locker with some interesting info. Are ever going to see it, or anything similar?
Once Hell Freezes Over!
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
Supporter
Dans Club
DWF Supporters
February 4, 2017
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Come on, Steve...you gotta believe...you gotta believe...you gotta believe. Make that your mantra.
And remember, nobody believed Broadway Joe when he said he would send Baltimore home empty handed.
"LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO SPEND IT WITH AN UGLY GUN!" - John Taffin
May 12, 2009
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Steve said
OK, not to be stupid here (which we all know I am fully capable of), Why would ATF willingly invite anyone into what is likely a monumental clusterflop? (notice how I skirted DWF Rules
Once Hell Freezes Over!
First you need to determine of the company records have passed top the new owner of the brand.
If not then you need to go to the ATF records center and I recommend with the help of your US Senator.
Records can be obtained for ATF. I know of a number of people who have obtained copies of the High Standard records including me.
As to your comments about the government dealing with decades of old non mainstream manufacturer that has gone through 3(?) ownership changes. High Standard's history runs from 1932 through 1984 ( over 5 decades) and 4 changes in ownership. High Standard manufacturing Company, Incorportated (1926-1946), High Standard Manufacturing Corp.(1941-1968), High Standard division of the Leisure Group (1968-1978), High Standard, Inc. 1978-1984.
The problems with the records are mostly due to the means of High Standards methods of maintaining the records. There are a lot of missing entries (open records), about 4% in the early years, that are in many instances are failures of the clerk to make the entry as evidences by peoples requesting information about a gun they have that turns out to be an open record. It appears that the ATF did fail to film some pages but it is possible that the paper pages were missing when the ATF agents went to Connecticut to pick up the records.
Even if flawed, the records will be of immeasurable help in your research and in the end worth your effort to obtain them.
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