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April 25, 2008
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You've seen the pictures in the banner at the top of the site, so I thought I would tell you a little about them. This is the lineup of Federal .357 Supermags. They were involved in the development of the Max right from the beginning. Hugh Reed of Federal Cartridge, had the first test runs of 1.610" Super Mag brass made to Elgin Gates specifications back in the late 1970's.
Left to right: the original special cases made up for Elgin Gates, notice the Super Magnum headstamp, which is quite scarce; the only Federal factory load, with a 180 grain JHP; the later version with the Remington Maximum headstamp, and the special run of cases made for the IHMSA, with the silhouette Ram on the headstamp.
The corresponding headstamps.
The Savantist
Range Officer
Range Officers
Dans Club
February 9, 2009
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IHMSA,
Thanks for the explanation. These cases are very interesting to me. I often wonderd if anyone made cases other than Remington for the maximum until you posted the pics. I am a nickel case fan and enjoy collecting nickel in any case made.
SMF
A man cannot have too many SuperMags
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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I honestly hope this is just the beginning of an "IHMSA80x80 Journey" through something that I know nothing about, and want to learn more. Lot's of us know nothing about SuperMags and Silhoutte Shooting, and it is always entertaining to me to learn more about this. Please bring it on.
Steve
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
December 17, 2008
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I fall into that category Steve just described.
But I wanted to comment at several different points about the cartridge photos - they are fabulous!
Your (introductory) explanation there is a wee bit of icing on the cake...
Supporter
Moderators
January 24, 2009
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Very interesting, thanks for explaining the differences.
It's interesting that the Gates case is a few thousanths shorter than the rest.
Along with these guys, I have noticed the case pics in the rotation & thought they were a neat addition. I also appreciate the pics of the various ammo boxes. Thanks for posting those!
Range Officer
Range Officers
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February 28, 2009
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IHMSA80x80:
I'm confused on 2 issues. The specification for the SuperMag cartridges by Elgin Gates was for a case length was 1.610 inches.
1. Why did Remington shorten the case to 1.605 for the 357 Maximum?
2. Why does the original Federal Case appear to be shorter in your pics?
April 25, 2008
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1. Actually, Remington settled on a 1.49″ case length initially, but testing showed the results Elgin was looking for just couldn't be found in that length. Some of the initial Federal cases were used in testing at Ruger and proved to work as Elgin originally planned. I believe that Remington changed the case length to 1.605″ so that they could claim they invented the round. That is why it is known as the .357 Maximum. It may also have something to do with the fact that they would have had to extend the frame size on the Super Blackhawk to accommodate Elgin's cases, something they weren't willing to do.
Dan Wesson, and United Sporting Arms realized that Elgin was correct, and built their guns with larger frame windows to use the full-length case that Elgin had designed, plus have room to seat the bullet out for more powder capacity.
It is well know that anyone can change a dimension of a particular case, hang their own name on it, and claim to be the inventor. Case length, shoulder placement, shoulder angle, even varying it by a degree or two, is enough to make a “new” round.
2. During initial testing, Elgin Gates tried various case lengths to see the effects on performance. Perhaps this case was from that test, or, more likely, it has been trimmed a bit short, perhaps to eliminate the start of a neck split from reloading.
The Savantist
April 25, 2008
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A little about the boxes for the above cartridges. I have no boxes for the prototype Federal Super Magnum brass…they are out there somewhere.
The F C 357 MAXIMUM is the only factory ammo loaded by Federal, with 180 grain bullets. Remington never offered anything but factory loaded 158 grain ammo. Here is the Federal box.
The F C 357 REM MAX is the next one. I believe, but I don't have proof, that this style headstamp was only used on Unprimed Cases, whereas the previous version above, was only used on factory loaded ammunition. Here's the UP box.
The fourth case, is the one loaded for the IHMSA, a special run by Federal with the organization's headstamp and the ram silhouette. There was no factory loaded ammo with this headstamp. Here's the IHMSA box.
Here's an interesting variation. Got this box in an auction, it was filled with brand new nickel IHMSA cases, however, the box somehow escaped the labeling machine. The only thing stamped anywhere on this box is the lot number on the bottom.
Everyone has seen the Remington green and yellow boxes. Winchester also made the .357 Maximum, but never loaded the ammo at the factory. Only Unprimed Cases were offered, and they apparently didn't make a lot of it, as it's kind of hard to find.
The Savantist
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February 28, 2009
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IHMSA80x80:
Thanks for the detailed history. I kind of figured that that is what Remington had done. It surprised me though, that that is the only case length available for this gun. Of course, as you said, anyone can re-size a case. I just find this very interesting.
Thanks again.
Range Officer
Range Officers
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February 9, 2009
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IHMSA,
I thought I saw an auction recently that had Remington 180 grain factory loaded maximum ammo. Could I have read it wrong or was there a small production run offered in 180 grain?
SMF
A man cannot have too many SuperMags
Supporter
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January 24, 2009
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Great info IHMSA, thanks for explaining all that. This thread made me go dig out my old ammo collection I had gathered in the late 80's. I have a .357 Max case in there, among other stuff.
I found it & compared the head stamp with the new ammo I got yesterday...same exact head stamp. Looks like this...
[Image Can Not Be Found]
This is a pic I found online from a guy selling brass. This has the same "RP" stamp mine do. I was hoping that my old one from way back had an IHMSA stamp.
I'm pretty sure my old case was from one of those green Remington boxes way back when, is that what "RP" is?
DWF Supporters
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November 17, 2008
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I don't mean to hijack a post but I believe R/P stands for Remington/Peters. Someone else will know for sure.
Wisdom is merely the realization of how little one knows, therefore I am wise.
Range Officer
Range Officers
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February 9, 2009
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Yes R-P is Remington Peters. I primarily have the R-P cases as well.
A man cannot have too many SuperMags
April 25, 2008
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Supermagfan said:
IHMSA,
I thought I saw an auction recently that had Remington 180 grain factory loaded maximum ammo. Could I have read it wrong or was there a small production run offered in 180 grain?
SMF
There might have been a small run. I can't find anything definite on that. It could have been a custom-loaded 180 in Remington cases?
The Savantist
July 5, 2009
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Here is a pic of a couple of Boxes of Rem 180 gr that I got in a Deal on July 4th.
Sorry about the focus.
Range Officer
Range Officers
Dans Club
February 9, 2009
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Great! They are indeed rare. Wise to maybe save them and load your own 180's maybe?
SMF
A man cannot have too many SuperMags
April 25, 2008
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That's a great box! I had thought they made some 180's, but couldn't find anything for sure, having never seen any. Perhaps it was only the first year they made them, maybe a couple years? It would be worth a lot more to collectors. The 158 grain factory loads are common.
The Savantist
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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Is that really $9.55? When would that have been new?
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
February 2, 2009
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That's a fantastic price; I paid $16 for 20 rounds in 1992 at a flea market shortly after I acquired my pistol. I quickly got into reloading and lucked into some of the IHMSA nickel brass on Ebay. I bid on one box for $12 and won; he sent me an email asking if I would like more, I ended up with 10 boxes of 50. I saved about 1/2 and use the rest mixed with some R/P brass I got from another auction. They seem to be holding up well as I've reloaded them many times and have only discarded a hand full.
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