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May 3, 2011
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The AR controversy is confusing to me. The AR in the normal civilian world is not an assault weapon and to me should not be labeled so. The word assault means, " harmful or offensive contact."
People I know use the AR to shoot targets and hunt with them. They are light and fold in half very easily. The design is quite ingenious. It is like a knife. It can be used for good or bad.
I do believe that something needs to be done about the senseless killing of people by young psychotic people in schools etc. To me the gun is impotent in killing by itself. It is the individual that pulls the trigger. That is the problem. What disturbs me most is that people use the weapon as an escape goat. They don't see the weighter matters that are the real culprit. (Well they do but they wont change a thing). The real problems to me is: 1) All the violence you see on TV and the theaters. 2). All the violent video games that kids play. 3). The violence in various music genres. All of these things brain wash kids from the age of kindergarten all the way up. These kids have no idea of who they are or what they want to be. Needless to say the children's home structure is ripped away with divorce and dead beat parents etc. To me these are the real issues.
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December 4, 2011
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A gun, any gun, is a tool, nothing more. It has no brain, no morals, no desires. It is no different than a hammer. It could be left sitting on a table and do no harm, or it could be picked up and used to drive a nail. Or it could be picked up and used to smash someones skull, same hammer. The difference in use is determined by the individual who wields it. Same goes for guns.
I find it offensive that the media has taken to portraying all gun owners as potential mass murders or lunatics simply because they have a firearm. The recent New York news paper incident publishing the names and addresses of gun permit holders like they are all rapists or felons, is very troubling. Why was this necessary?
I think the root of the problem is desensitization to violence and death. I played plenty of video games in my teens/twenties, but the graphics were cartoon like or worse and the targets were space aliens, or incoming missiles. Today's games are so photo realistic as to be almost equal to the best military simulators. When you shoot a person in these games, you see blood and facial expressions that are very realistic. I think these first person shooter games are a part of the problem. Poor parenting, and lack of discipline are also to blame.
Good grief, I sound like my father now, I guess I really am getting old.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
My father
If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.
My grandfather
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March 2, 2008
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Violence by criminals and mentally ill people will never stop. Given the choice of legislating a finite, describable, definable object like a magazine, bullet, gun OR trying to legislate something as slippery and nebulous as mental illness, where do you think lawmakers will go?
Dealing with criminals is just as difficult. By definition, a criminal must commit a crime, and it's difficult to stop that first crime. Habitual and repeat offenders should be easier, and we can't even effectively deal with that as a society.
I will say again that I have some real concerns with how easily people who should not be able to get guns, can get guns. It is easier for a criminal to get a gun than a law abiding citizen.
Unfortunately, any attempt at reasonable compromise on sensible Gun Control (which should really be Gun Usage Control) seems impossible because what is done will never be enough to eliminate gun violence (or knife violence, or simple assault with fists), and therefore unacceptable to to the "controllers". It will never be enough.
I have yet to see limits on high performance vehicles, even though over 32,000 people died in vehicle incidents in 2011. There's no data to suggest that high performance vehicles caused an unusually high proportion of those deaths, but who "really needs an AMG Hammer/Corvette/Ferrari?" is clearly different in some way from "who really needs a 33 round magazine for a pistol/an AR type rifle/a knife with a 6" blade?" in a way that I do not yet grasp.
Alcohol abuse kills some 75,000 Americans each year and shortens the lives of these people by an average of 30 years, a U.S. government study suggested (in 2005)
For alcohol we tried Prohibition (a purely Legislative solution), demanded by outraged and vocal groups that got tremendous publicity, sound familiar? That worked well, didn't it? Solidified the grasp of organized crime, created a situation where people were consuming adulterated alcohol products, and was finally revealed to be a disastrous solution and was repealed. More currently, all the anti drug laws are working well, aren't they?
Legislation does not solve the problems created by human flaws, faults, and frailties.
"Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it" (George Santayana)
I guess I ran over my allotted time, sorry.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
December 27, 2012
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Removing AR's from the civilian weapons list would accomplish nothing in regards to protecting us from evil... Nothing at all.. What it would do, is start a chain reaction in gun control.
The average Internet savy koo-koo can find many means of harming many, even moreso than with a miss labeled Assault Weapon..
Unless we begin treating criminal like criminals things won't get better and even then, mentally ill people will still fall off the deep end from time to time and use whatever means they choose to harm people.
Miss-labeling AR's and controlling them would be a step in the furthering of the demise of this once great nation. 
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July 2, 2011
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I've watched this thread and given it a lot of thought. First of all there is nothing wrong with the original question/premise. I've tried over the years to discuss firearm ownership with the uninitiated to the rabidly anti folks. I've come up with a few conclusions and strategies.
Question #1: Why do you own guns? You don't need them. It's not like you have to hunt for your dinner.
Answer #1: I used to try and explain how I like to hunt and target shoot. Now my answer is, I don't have to have a reason it's my Constitutional right.
Question #2: Why do you need that assault weapon/weapon of war? It's not a hunting rifle.
Answer #2: See answer Number #1, and do you want to see the pictures of dead blood soaked wild hogs?
Question #3: the 2nd Amendment doesn't really mean YOU have the right to have guns.
Answer #3: Let's look at the 2nd Amendment;
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
This was written by a bunch of guys who didn't trust "the Man". They didn't like or want a large standing army. It is my firm belief, taking into account the historical setting, that the founders in this one sentence were reconciling themselves to the need for an armed force to be organized for the defense of the country. That would be the first 13 words. The last 14 words are critical. Taking into account their mistrust of strong central government and standing armies, I believe they wanted to insure that a free and armed citizenry would be a counter balance to armed threats from "the Man." Now this explanation works for me and is historically plausible. It does not fly with the "living document" crowd. That would be the folks in power now and they have an agenda. That agenda would erase the last 14 words.
If I thought for one minute that the people leading this charge were sincere about making things safer, I would encourage my representatives and the NRA to sit down and have an open discourse. I don't believe the leaders of the gun control movement are sincere. Please note I said leaders, there are a lot of very uninformed followers out there. I believe their target are those 14 words. Hell guys I'm a negotiator by training and temperament. I've mediated over 500 law suits and taught mediation and negotiation at 1 university, 2 colleges and 1 law school.
There is one thing I found early on in mediation, I could keep anyone talking to the other party until someone said, "it's the principal of the thing". You cannot negotiate someone's principals. Fellas, for me this is now "the principal of the thing". We simply can't budge. If we do, we will wake up one morning with Obamacare for firearms.
Remember what Rahm Emmanuel said, "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste".
Well, they have their crisis and they aren't wasting it.
Sorry for the long winded rant guys.
To the paranoid people who check behind shower curtains for murderers:
if you find one...what's your plan?
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July 2, 2011
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BTW, this one is mine. Another freerider04 creation.
To the paranoid people who check behind shower curtains for murderers:
if you find one...what's your plan?
December 26, 2010
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Forgive me as I am late to this discussion (and I have fallen out of the habit of checking in as often as I used to).
To answer the original question, I started off as a handgun guy. Earlier this year, I bought a used Marlin 336 lever gun. It's fun to shoot but has just a little too much recoil for my youngest. So enter the AR-15. Fun and easy to shoot, low recoil and the ability to change features and calibers is a huge attractant. I'm now assembling the parts for an AR in 6.5 Grendel. 
It should be a good 350 yard deer gun for my youngest. And given the way this country is racking up debt, there may very well come a day of reckoning when the government has to curtail the handouts and Greece-like riots happen here. While the risk where I live is very low, should it happen an AR may be required to keep my family safe.
And now the real reason why I personally am pro-gun and know that gun control will do nothing to stop the sort of violence that happened at Sandy Hook. Evil exists. I learned this the hard way as a small child, the age of some of the victims at Sandy Hook. I was brutally attacked by a late 20's/early 30's male. He had no weapon. I was defenseless. I remember clearly his parting words that if I ever spoke of the attack that I would never see my family again. He regretted letting me live and called my mother threatening death. In her panic, she thought he meant my older brother. I never said a word. My mom passed earlier this year so I am just now speaking of the attack publicly. Evil exists. There isn't much of it but when it comes the only thing it fears is overwhelming force. Most gun-grabbers are scared of evil and hopelessly think they can prevent it by taking guns away. That only emboldens evil, for evil likes it victims meek, weak and defenseless. The hope of most gun-grabbers is false.
Evil exists. Guns didn't cause Sandy Hook. Video games didn't cause Sandy Hook. Mental illness didn't cause Sandy Hook. Lanza deliberately chose an unarmed, weak and defenseless group of victims. His was a cowardly, evil act. One meant only to cause pain and suffering. The only thing that would have stopped him was one or more good people with guns.
So back to the original question, I own two AR's because they are easy and fun to shoot, reliable, flexible and in a worst case scenario offer excellent protection. While the worst case scenario is rare, and hopefully something I will never see, I don't want to be forced to be weak, meek and defenseless again.
August 28, 2009
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It's a matter of personal tastes and preferences, and everyone is different. Some people like semi's, some like bolt actions, some like pumps, etc. Some like decked out AR's. Some like revolvers too and some can't stand them. And as far as need, I doubt anyone NEEDS half of the stuff they've got stashed away, but they like it and want it. I don't think it's fitting to be questioning what is the "need" or "what good is it". Everyone has their own personal reasons for buying and collecting what they do, and it's really no one else's position to question why they like it, want it, or own it.
January 22, 2008
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Hand drill, electric drill, cordless drill.
Every tool has it's purpose. I like all my tools and want to keep them. 
…he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36 Life in a Jar: The Irena Sendler Project http://www.irenasendler.com/
USN-Vet, NRA, GOA, JPFO, SC-GRGR
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March 2, 2008
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This is some of the best and most balanced discussion I've seen on any Forum. I think that many shooters recognize that some things may inevitably change in how we acquire, use, and safeguard our guns, very few want to give up ANYTHING because it just turns into Take, Take, Take, until it's all gone.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
October 11, 2009
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(The real problems to me is: 1) All the violence you see on TV and the theaters. 2). All the violent video games that kids play. 3). The violence in various music genres. All of these things brain wash kids from the age of kindergarten all the way up. These kids have no idea of who they are or what they want to be. Needless to say the children's home structure is ripped away with divorce and dead beat parents etc. To me these are the real issues. "Gary J." )
I agree with this. As I stated at the first of this post of the "Snowball Effect" and of what use was this weapon? Those old enough to remember of a time in the 60's and 70's where our cartoons were watered down of violence. Television rarely showed much violence. One of my favorite shows
was cancelled because James West of The Wild Wild West would get into at least 2 or 3 knockdown fights per episode. It was deemed too violent. You never heard of Rape or Sodomy on a prime time show. In the late 70's an old Sci Fi show called Battlestar Galactica changed the enemy from living creatures to machines because they could only kill off so many per episode. A controversial show called SOAP was threatened not to be aired locally because they had a Gay character on it. Divorce was unheard of. And the only access to porn were my dads Playboy books under his mattress. One of the most violent movie characters of the time was Dirty Harry. For about 20 years you could not find toy guns. G.I.Joe was turned from a "Fighting Man" to an adventurer. But these days you see rape, men kissing, mind boggling acts of violence on these crime show's that my wife watch's. I only watch Discovery, Science, History and Outdoor channel's The worst thing we feared from our teachers was not to bring your home work in. And if you acted up they paddled you or made you bang eraser's. Now they have teacher's and even major university coaches having sex with students. What ever happened to the Boy Scouts Of America? When was the last time you saw a Scout in uniform? When my daughter was in elementary school she had a lot of her little girl friends spend the weekends with us. 80 percent of these children did not have a father at home. Marriage today is more like a rental agreement. My wife and I would astound her school teachers when we would attend a parent teacher conference together. We were told many times how unusual it was to have both "Biological' parents at these meetings. I am so sick of the term, "My babies daddy". Yes we have some wonderful things these day's. Microwave food, a phone in your pocket, the internet, personal palm sized computer's, 30-40 mpg vehicles. But I would trade it all for God, Country and family any day. I am sorry if I offended anyone, I'm turning into a grumpy old man. But people should get their noses out of those phones and start paying attention to the folks around them. Believe it or not, we actually talk to our neighbors. And we watch out for each other. And we live in the country. We call each other to let each know when we will be target shooting and such. Just to let each other know that our wives are not shooting at us.
Sorry for the rant guy's. Dantanna58
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December 5, 2008
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Ditto to brucertx's comments! I'm not willing to give up any rights.
November 23, 2008
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Greetings
And do not forget the lowly 12 guage pump shotgun. Maybe not real great for open country unless a rifled barrel is attached then 100 yards is no problem.
But if I ever have to repel boarders I am not grabbing anything else. Now for that preverbial GOOD trip I will have that venerable Mickey Mouse black plastic .223 along just because resupply is going to be so simple.
But can you imagine laying on a hill side in the creedmore position and starting to engage targets at 200 meters with a 414 Supermag then switching to a 41 mag dropping them off in a hole to be retreaved later.
Mike in ILL
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December 4, 2011
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A little off topic, but I just watched a vid by a 'concerned citizen' and one of the 'regulations' she wants discussed in the whole gun control legislation package is the amount of ammunition you should be allowed to have. Her statement went something like 'no one should be able to buy enough ammunition to be able to shoot up a school'. So how much would that be? Are we to be regulated on total number of rounds we can own, or will we be allowed so many for each caliber? What about those who shoot competition? 100 rounds wouldn't be enough for a practice session let alone a match. I fear that the anti's have far more on their collective minds than simply banning evil black guns, they want to totally disarm all law abiding citizens. In their minds, there is no difference between a lawful gun owner and an evil criminal monster, they are one and the same, thats us. We are all being lumped into the same category as Adam Lanza, monsters all. Personally that offends me and makes me sick.
Has anyone noticed how detailed the Finestine proposal is? She has had this in the works for a LONG time, just waiting for an opportune moment to spring it on the media. I fear we are in for a difficult fight.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
My father
If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.
My grandfather
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July 2, 2011
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Allow me to interject a little humor. It may be funny but Spock's logic is spot on!
To the paranoid people who check behind shower curtains for murderers:
if you find one...what's your plan?
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April 20, 2010
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This topic has remained very civil, and a good friendly interaction for the most part. However I think the original question has been strayed from.
As I read the original post, Dantanna's asking basically why so many people are interested in owning an AR style rifle. His question has nothing to do with the right of someone to own one, he already has a grip on gun ownership rights.
I have several friends who own ARs for various reasons, and I will over simplify here and say that they own them because they like them. They like the way they shoot, feel, and look.
However, when I see the buying frenzy going on now, I ask why these people are suddenly wanting an AR or high capacity auto pistol? Just because they fear the US govt. will tell us we can't buy one soon? I think a lot of people are spending a lot of money for just that reason. Is this recent frenzy putting a lot of weapons into the hands of people who are otherwise lacking in gun knowledge and safe handling practices?
-Lonwolf
"The lion and the tiger may be more powerful, but the Wolf does not perform in the circus"
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December 4, 2011
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Lonwolfe has it correct. A friend of mine, an FFL, has told me that he has had several older couples come into his shop and ask to buy AR's simply because they want one before a ban happens. He also told me that he has had other people who have never owned a gun before come in and buy several (not AR's he won't sell them to inexperienced people) just so they won't be shut out of the market if a ban happens. It is mostly fear buying. Kind of like what happens in the norteast before every snow storm. People go to the grocery store and load up on bread, milk and toilet paper as if they will be trapped in their house 'til spring. This is the same phenomenon only on a grander scale because there is the possibility that a ban will happen and be permanent.
In reality, the ban proposal is doing more to put guns in circulation and in the hands of inexperienced people than any advertising campaign could ever do.
On topic, the AR appeals to a large base of shooters because it is versatile. It can be used for varmit hunting, long range target shooting, and home defense. The 30 round mag is attractive from a defensive perspective. As with any technology, there is the potential for abuse by people with bad intentions, and its the bad intentions that must be addressed in any meaningful discussion on curbing violence.
The range where I shoot mostly has a 3 round limit in any long gun and a 6 round limit in any hand gun. If you are sitting at a shooting bench with a mini 14 and a full mag blasiting away, you will be asked to leave. So for me, a large cap mag, doesn't really matter all that much, though I understand why people want them.
If the ban happens, its going to ban alot more than mags. Its so broadly worderd that even the 1911 is an 'assult weapon' since it has one characteristic on the 'bad' list, a detachable magazine.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
My father
If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.
My grandfather
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February 22, 2009
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OK, to answer the question regarding capacity... I NEED a 20 round magazine for my AR so I can convert it to carry five 450 Bushmaster rounds.
That and the fact that ALOT of ammo is used in a SHTF situation (previously stated). It's nice to be able to carry one 30 round magazine instead of three 10 round magazines. Not many folks practice magazine changes (if you don't, you need to) and have to take their eyes off the target in order to accomplish a change drill- no bueno in a crisis situation (again, experience speaking here).
Remember- Police usually repond to a situation, more often than preventing one. If I need it, I'd like to have it. Finally- if the evil ones can have it, then I should be able to have/use the same tool against them.
Happy New Year!
Ron
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
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January 24, 2009
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SCORPIO said
Has anyone noticed how detailed the Finestine proposal is? She has had this in the works for a LONG time, just waiting for an opportune moment to spring it on the media. I fear we are in for a difficult fight.
Exactly. That's why I think that she & the rest of them probably did a collective high-five the moment the news of the shooting hit the airwaves.
August 28, 2009
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harly said
It's a matter of personal tastes and preferences, and everyone is different. Some people like semi's, some like bolt actions, some like pumps, etc. Some like decked out AR's. Some like revolvers too and some can't stand them. And as far as need, I doubt anyone NEEDS half of the stuff they've got stashed away, but they like it and want it. I don't think it's fitting to be questioning what is the "need" or "what good is it". Everyone has their own personal reasons for buying and collecting what they do, and it's really no one else's position to question why they like it, want it, or own it.
I stick to my original response with the following additional info.......I have the flame lit and ready to torch the stake!
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