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February 20, 2008
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Hope this is the correct place for the post, if not, I'm sure it will be corrected.
She makes some good points.
http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-free-gun-r ... 33108.html
A Muslim civil rights group is asking the Department of Justice to investigate an Arkansas shooting range whose owner recently declared it a "Muslim-free zone."
In a letter to U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, Jenifer Wicks, a lawyer for the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), writes that the declaration is "a violation of federal laws prohibiting racial and religious discrimination" and "will inevitably result in a hostile environment for ordinary Muslims in Arkansas."
"This is not a coffee and donut shop," Jan Morgan, owner of the Gun Cave Indoor Shooting Range in Hot Springs, Ark., wrote in an online post last month. "This is a live fire indoor shooting range ... Why would I want to rent or sell a gun and hand ammunition to someone who aligns himself with a religion that commands him to kill me?"
Morgan, who says she has "read and studied" the Koran thoroughly, found "109 verses commanding hate, murder and terror against all human beings who refuse to submit or convert to Islam."
"People who shoot at my range come from all religious backgrounds," she wrote. "I do not care about their religious beliefs until or unless those beliefs command them to commit violent crimes against innocent people and I witness those crimes increasing, as we all have lately."
Morgan claims that when she received her license to sell guns, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives informed her "that if we feel ANY reason for concern about selling someone a firearm, even sense that something is not right about an individual, or if we are concerned about that [person's] mental state, even if they pass a background check, we do not have to sell that person a gun. Two different ATF agents stressed that it is better to err on the side of caution. In other words, a federal agency has given [gun shops] discretion on firearms deals.
"I understand that not all Muslims are terrorists," Morgan continued. "I also believe there are as many Muslims who do not know what is in their Koran as there are Christians who do not know what is in their Bible. Since I have no way of discerning which Muslims will or will not killin the name of their religion and the commands in their Koran, I choose to err on the side of caution for the safety of my patrons."
In the letter to Holder, Wicks writes that Morgan "appears to be misinterpreting the advice given to her and refusing service to all Muslims, which cannot be a correct interpretation of compliance with federal gun laws and the U.S. Constitution."
But according to Morgan — who says she has received death threats from Muslims in the past — the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks; Boston Marathon bombing; Fort Hood massacre; and a recent beheading at an Oklahoma food distribution center justify her ban.
"This is more than enough loss of life on my home soil at the hands of Muslims to substantiate my position that Muslims can and may follow the directives in their Koran and kill here at home," she wrote.
CAIR sent copies of its letter to the governor of Arkansas, U.S. Justice Department's Civil Rights Division, U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, the U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Arkansas and the ATF's Little Rock field office.
Morgan responded on her Facebook page: "It’s easy for CAIR to bully and threaten average American citizens like me who have a business to lose and a life to destroy. It's what they do. We are the easy targets. I’ve been a target of Islamist threats for five years ... fully expecting at any time one of them to follow through with the threat. I may go down for speaking the truth about Islam ... I may lose everything I have, (which isn't much) but they can't take my integrity ... This is a mountain I’m willing to die on."
If you're going to drink, don't drive. Don't even putt.
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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A Shooting Range owner has made the decision to deny access to people based on religious belief.
If the Range owner wishes to deny access based on behavior on the Range I support that fully.
Deny me because of a safety violation, negligent discharge, non-compliant firearm or caliber, OK
Deny me because I am a Muslim, Atheist, Roman Catholic, Methodist, Druid, Mormon, etc, sorry, Not OK.
Freedom means Free, within the constraints of Law
This discussion is not compliant with DWF Policy.
Topic Locked, subsequent posts deleted, no further discussion
Steve
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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After several PM's with the OP, who is a very long standing and respected Member of DWF, this Topic is no longer locked.
There was never an issue with the original Topic, which raises questions that we need to struggle with, and define, in terms of our personal values and beliefs.
The Topic locked because of a follow on post that was very aggressive in profiling people based on the perception of religious beliefs, that post was deleted. I felt at the time that the response was inflammatory, and I was concerned that the Topic was taking us in directions that are not appropriate for DWF.
A healthy discussion of the personal rights of anyone legally eligible to own and use firearms is always welcome on DWF.
If my action was an "over reaction" I apologize, I always err in favor of keeping DWF free of inflammatory rhetoric.
Steve
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
January 22, 2008
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I can recall in days past, entering a business and seeing signs that read "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone". So for the CAIR to complain to the US Attorney General would seem indifferent to a private businesses rights. On the other hand, how does one go about identifying the spiritual beliefs of a stranger (if they are not dressed/tattooed in a way that would allow an educated guess)?
-Wayne
February 20, 2008
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"If my action was an “over reaction” I apologize, I always err in favor of keeping DWF free of inflammatory rhetoric.
Steve"
...and we thank you!
If you're going to drink, don't drive. Don't even putt.
January 22, 2008
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It would seem that Ms. Morgan has put some thought into her decision and I would think as a private business person she has the right to offer her services to whomever she wishes. As Wayne stated she may have a difficult time identifying individuals I know I would.
I know if there is an establishment that I don't like for whatever reason I can choose to spend my money elsewhere so I would suggest if there are individuals in the Hot Springs area that disagree with Ms. Morgan's policy they would have that option as well.
Here in Roanoke we also have an indoor range that I choose not to visit not because of fear of Muslims but for fear of incompetent shooters. I still haven't figured out how one can shoot the ceiling a mere 3 or 4 feet in front of the firing line or the steel column dividing the lanes!
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Dans Club
December 4, 2011
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The same way they are shooting into the wooden shooting benches six inches in front of them at my range. I'm glad I've never been there when these ND's happen since some of them are at angles towards the person beside them. I cannot imagine how inept someone needs to be to fire into the table they are shooting from. Muzzle discipline is not common sense I guess.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
My father
If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.
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Supporter
June 25, 2013
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You know one time I was at the best Gun store in Michigan, The Williams Gun Sight Company in Davison, it's a complex actually. Standing in the long line was a person dressed in a Burka with just their eyes showing. What got me was, not only was this unusual compared to the rest of regular dressed folk buying guns and supplies but I'll be damned if I could tell if it was a man or woman under there.
Endeavor to persevere,
Press on regardless.
Need little, want less, love more.
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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I've created enough controversy on this subject, I absolutely guarantee that this is my last comment on this subject:
Are you prepared to have the owner of any business that you patronize, or might want to patronize, deny you the right to purchase goods or services based how that business owner assesses your appearance and/or perceives your religious or political beliefs?
Trust me when I say that this subject has kept me up several late nights examining MY position on this.
Whether or not anyone else agrees, America is about me having my opinion, and the freedom to live my life within the law, based on my values, and my responsibility to accept the right of others to have the ability to do the same.
In spite of my sometimes assertive opinions, Peace be With Us All.
Steve
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
August 15, 2014
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"Are you prepared to have the owner of any business that you patronize, or might want to patronize, deny you the right to purchase goods or services based how that business owner assesses your appearance and/or perceives your religious or political beliefs?"
Some do if you legally carry a concealed weapon. Others if you don't wear a shirt and shoes. Personally, I just take my business elsewhere. I do wear shirts and shoes….
January 22, 2008
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Steve CT said
Are you prepared to have the owner of any business that you patronize, or might want to patronize, deny you the right to purchase goods or services based how that business owner assesses your appearance and/or perceives your religious or political beliefs?
For me if someone finds my beliefs so offensive I would rather not patronize their business and would rather spend my money else where. As Ed stated above there are business and restaurants that prohibit firearms on their premises and I typically choose not to frequent those establishments. The reverse is also true in I will patronize businesses that publicly support my political or religious beliefs.
As Steve has pointed it's our responsibility to accept the right of others. That sometimes becomes difficult because I think at times the minority push their views on the majority. Freedom isn't free and thanks to the sacrifices of many (including several of our members here on the DWF!) we're able to debate these types of questions and we have morale responsibility to do so. I wish members of our government would take on these types of questions with the same level of responsibility that Steve has and lose a few hours of sleep in order to make the right decision!
I'm certainly no legal expert but looking at this from that point of view Ms. Morgan may be standing on shaky ground. Based on this link it appears the courts have decided that the constitutional interest in providing equal access to public accommodations outweighs the individual liberties involved.
Unfortunately, this issue and many others face our nation and with elections around the corner it's our responsibility to become educated on the candidates and vote. I personally have become disheartened with the selection of candidates here in Virginia over the last several elections which makes it difficult to get engaged in the process. I know between now and November I'm gong to make a commit to do my research and get out and vote!
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October 14, 2010
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Another story I remember is a company, I think it was some sort of health care had a smoking ban on employees. No smoking at work or at home. If you want to work for the company you do not smoke. If you want to smoke work elsewhere.
At first I thought it was BS to control what an employee does on their own time. After some time thinking about it I realized they weren't controlling off time. It is just simply they do not want employees that smoke. No one was being forced to work there or quit smoking. It was the employees choice to quit smoking or find another job.
Support your local IHMSA range.
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Dans Club
February 22, 2009
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OK, so now I'm going to show you how "geeky" I am at times. Scroll down or over to one hour fourteen minutes and start reading or watching... There is momentum to remove tobacco from Posts, Camps, Bases and Stations and talk about banning smoking in the military... Now that is almost as sad as the fact that I watch CSPAN...
Man, sorry linked this thread to the National Defense Act hearings...
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
August 15, 2014
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rwsem said
OK, so now I'm going to show you how "geeky" I am at times. Scroll down or over to one hour fourteen minutes and start reading or watching... There is momentum to remove tobacco from Posts, Camps, Bases and Stations and talk about banning smoking in the military... Now that is almost as sad as the fact that I watch CSPAN...Man, sorry linked this thread to the National Defense Act hearings...
Wasn't there an effort to do this several years ago? I remember an editorial cartoon showing two guys in a foxhole with bullets flying and some reference to those things (a cigarette) will kill you. In my time we used to get 'SP Packs', I think they were called, that contained soap, socks and quite a few cartons of various brands of cigarettes. 'C rats' had little packs with four cigarettes in each meal box. Times do change…...
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