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January 22, 2008
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Good Morning Guys,
It appears that the Slide Fire topic has resurfaced at my gun club. To give you guys a little background, I'm currently on the Board of Directors for my club and was also when we originally decided to prohibit the use of the slide fire on club property. The decision to prohibit this product came at the January board meeting following the tragic events in Sandy Hook on December 14th, 2012. Since I wasn't familiar with the product and had limited knowledge of the AR platform I based my opinion and vote on members there were. After the vote I raised the topic here on the DWF for discussion hoping I hadn't made the decision in haste. Here is a link to the original post.
Last night a member came before the board to request the board reverse the earlier decision and allow the use of the slide fire on club property. He brought forth letters from Slide Fire stating the produce is safe which obviously they would say and from the ATF stating it is legal to own. The Board informed this member would we review the decision and would let him know within two weeks whether or not it will stand or be overturned.
Here is some points for though:
- Our club currently allows Class 3 weapons but they must be approved by our Class 3 Officer and approved by the board.
- We currently do not have any restrictions on rapid fire.
- While this product may be safe and cause no issues on mil-spec guns what effect would it have on non mil-spec guns. What type of failure would be likely if one was to occur.
- If we allow the use of slide fire stocks after approval would this not open us up to liability if a gun they are used on did have a failure where someone was injured. And if so wouldn't this also apply to Class 3?
- Should something that is legal to own be prohibited from use?
So once again I'm asking for you opinions on this issue.
February 21, 2011
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FWIW my opinion.
If full auto fire (not rapid fire which is different) is allowed I don't see a problem as the range is already set up to deal with the specialized need of full auto fire. If it is not set up for full auto, just rapid fire, I'd suggest a peer review by someone familiar with ranges equipped for it. After that safety review you'll be better equipped as a board to make informed decisions.
Bump firing is a working technique,, either with, or without the mechanical aid. Not my cup of tea, but that isn't what is being discussed here. The stock just simplifies the technique & doesn't alter the internal operation of the gun, it just adds to the existing mechanism.
Because of that I'd be focusing on the effects of full auto fire, rather than mechanical issues with the stock. If it fails it fails safe, reverting back to semi-auto fire just as the firearm was before it was added.
Matthew Quigley on handguns:
“I said I never had much use for one. Never said
I didn't know how to use it.”
Dans Club
April 18, 2014
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I looked this up and found a couple vids I thought would shed some light. the first one is tested by Military Arms, some one who would know and can handle the auto fire. The second vid is a couple of dips---s who don't much more than have a clue, IMO.
If your range can support a weapon capable of auto fire, I don't see to much of an issue as long as the owner can show competency using a weapon of this nature. The untrained shooter on full auto could be just like the little 9 yr old, our brother Steve CT told us about recently. My own son, at 19, in USCG boot camp wrote that he was surprised by a machine guns fire. That was 8 years ago, how much more dumbed down by silly video games have young people become since. My opinion there, but I limited my kids on shooting games because of that feeling.
The second vid shows the insufficient training by a young man who wasn't smart enough to release the trigger until he was starting to stumble backwards... he thought it was funny. I would advise as mister callan. With a peer review of those ranges knowledgeable in handling auto fire. I personally would want, range officers trained in full auto, to certify any member who wished to use this devise. If the individual cannot handle credibly, then so sorry.
Oath Keeper #021479 NRA #206814004
Member AAGSR Member AGA #83120600233
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788
February 21, 2011
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Absolutely agreed.
Some kind of training / certification should be part of the process. Not a written & video course but a hands on controlled certification given by someone experienced in F/A fire.
I am experienced & can control a 7.62mm NATO in full auto, but many would not be able to do so. Train the way we were trained, start with just 4~5 rounds & ensure the candidates can stop before all are fired. An empty mag would be an automatic FAIL & sent back for retraining.
Matthew Quigley on handguns:
“I said I never had much use for one. Never said
I didn't know how to use it.”
Dans Club
April 18, 2014
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I like the way you think mister callan. Of course, I am one who thinks every body when they come of age should have to do a stint at one of Uncle Sam's activity center. I know, I know, so we wont go there. Just me... I just think that is something Israel does right and there would be a lot more patriotism in this country again....sorry, said I wouldn't go there.
Oath Keeper #021479 NRA #206814004
Member AAGSR Member AGA #83120600233
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788
February 21, 2011
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No problem.
My time wasn't in the U.S Military, but in the final analysis they're all pretty similar. Somewhere we lost the concept of responsibility for personal actions, that is something I think we need to reinstate over "rights" that are 100% free.
Matthew Quigley on handguns:
“I said I never had much use for one. Never said
I didn't know how to use it.”
Supporter
Range Officer
Dans Club
Range Officers
Members
July 2, 2011
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Jody,
My position hasn't changed. It is potentially dangerous enough on the firing line with folks of unknown skill and knowledge handling live weapons 3 feet from you. It gives me the "willies" to think about some of them next to me drooling to rock and roll!
Interestingly enough my club, which is self policing and has no official "range officers", has a strict NO rapid fire rule. We all take it seriously and a number of offending members had to go through the safety course again. A couple refused and lost their membership.
To the paranoid people who check behind shower curtains for murderers:
if you find one...what's your plan?
January 22, 2008
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At this point I'm still comfortable with my original "No" vote on this topic. The only way I think I would consider changing my vote would be to put in place a process for demonstrating competency, review of the firearm the slide fire is attached to, etc. With that said I think a process like this would be burdensome to the few members that volunteer at the club and not worth the effort for the few that might have this product.
April 3, 2012
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Jody
We live in an extremely litigious society. It could be argued that anyone who has a Class 3 firearm and has paid the transfer fee "knew" what they were getting. With the SlideFire, these are weapons designed to be semi-auto not full. If someone were to be injured or worse, I fear a good attorney could make the case that allowing someone with a Class 3 license is not the same as a device that allows a weapon made for the general public to be turned into a Class 3 weapon. I believe you made the right decision to protect your club and its members.
February 26, 2012
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Jody, in your OP you state some of the things that your club allows. The first was class 3 weapons that are approved by your class 3 officer. I don't know much about the slide fire thingy but it sounds like that could and should come under the jurisdiction of your class 3 officer. Would you consider approving the slide fire under that condition? This could be a solution to your question.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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Jody said
Good Morning Guys,It appears that the Slide Fire topic has resurfaced at my gun club. To give you guys a little background, I'm currently on the Board of Directors for my club and was also when we originally decided to prohibit the use of the slide fire on club property. The decision to prohibit this product came at the January board meeting following the tragic events in Sandy Hook on December 14th, 2012. Since I wasn't familiar with the product and had limited knowledge of the AR platform I based my opinion and vote on members there were. After the vote I raised the topic here on the DWF for discussion hoping I hadn't made the decision in haste. Here is a link to the original post.
Last night a member came before the board to request the board reverse the earlier decision and allow the use of the slide fire on club property. He brought forth letters from Slide Fire stating the produce is safe which obviously they would say and from the ATF stating it is legal to own. The Board informed this member would we review the decision and would let him know within two weeks whether or not it will stand or be overturned.
Here is some points for though:
- Our club currently allows Class 3 weapons but they must be approved by our Class 3 Officer and approved by the board.
- We currently do not have any restrictions on rapid fire.
- While this product may be safe and cause no issues on mil-spec guns what effect would it have on non mil-spec guns. What type of failure would be likely if one was to occur.
- If we allow the use of slide fire stocks after approval would this not open us up to liability if a gun they are used on did have a failure where someone was injured. And if so wouldn't this also apply to Class 3?
- Should something that is legal to own be prohibited from use?
So once again I'm asking for you opinions on this issue.
I'll buck the trend here:
1) Why did your club make any change in policy based on Sandy Hook? If your policies were sound and safe prior to the acts of a mentally ill person who utilized an illegally possessed semi-auto rifle, why change?
2) Your club allows Class III, and has a Class III officer. Slidefire does not seem to be Class III, and reviewing this firearm and it's owner/operator by your Class III officer would seem to more than satisfy reasonable prudence.
3) If it is legal to own, and meets the expectations/requirements of your Club, you should not reasonably prohibit it's use, AS LONG AS IT IS USED IN A SAFE MANNER, exactly as you expect every other forearm to be used at your Club.
4) Live and Let Live! Your Club needs to require it's members to comply with safety standards, if they don't, deal with it promptly and directly. Full Auto/Semi Auto/Slide Fire/Bump Fire/muzzle loader/ trap shooting/ Three Gun/ ... Shooting Safety is straightforward. If you are safe, you shoot, if not you are gone.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
Dans Club
April 18, 2014
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Oath Keeper #021479 NRA #206814004
Member AAGSR Member AGA #83120600233
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788
Supporter
Moderators
Dans Club
February 22, 2009
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In the original post, I recommended a "permit" to show proficiency. I still think that is the best option- it's fine as long as the person can demonstrate they are proficient on the weapon.
Regarding liability.... that's definitely not my lane, but I would assume they signed a hold harmless agreement before shooting on the range, yes?
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
February 21, 2011
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Before anyone thinks I'm against allowing them let me clarify.
I'm in favor of allowing them.
I do believe showing competence is a part of the process though.
Matthew Quigley on handguns:
“I said I never had much use for one. Never said
I didn't know how to use it.”
January 22, 2008
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1) Why did your club make any change in policy based on Sandy Hook? If your policies were sound and safe prior to the acts of a mentally ill person who utilized an illegally possessed semi-auto rifle, why change?
We have extensive rules and regulations that must be following which must be acknowledged and signed each year upon renewal of membership. When this topic was originally brought before the board it was immediately following the events in Sandy Hook while there is not connection the view of some board members were concerned if something did happen with a slide fire (or anything for that matter) it would bring unwanted attention to the club.
This was not a change in policy since it hadn't been addressed. The president at the time was totally against it and I believe it's about a 50/50 split at the moment.
2) Your club allows Class III, and has a Class III officer. Slidefire does not seem to be Class III, and reviewing this firearm and it’s owner/operator by your Class III officer would seem to more than satisfy reasonable prudence.
We do have a Class III officer however since these aren't Class III he didn't want to get involved. One of the board members are following up with him now on this topic so I'm not sure if hes views have changed.
3) If it is legal to own, and meets the expectations/requirements of your Club, you should not reasonably prohibit it’s use, AS LONG AS IT IS USED IN A SAFE MANNER, exactly as you expect every other forearm to be used at your Club.
I tend to agree with you on this point since we allow Class III weapons and have no regulations against rapid fire.
4) Live and Let Live! Your Club needs to require it’s members to comply with safety standards, if they don’t, deal with it promptly and directly. Full Auto/Semi Auto/Slide Fire/Bump Fire/muzzle loader/ trap shooting/ Three Gun/ … Shooting Safety is straightforward. If you are safe, you shoot, if not you are gone.
As stated above we have extensive regulations in place and besides some members shooting target stands and the metal poppers with rifles have had little issue. Below is a link to our regulations.
http://roanokerifle.com/wp-content/forms/RRRC_Range_Regs.pdf
August 15, 2014
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Since it's a 'club' with a controlled membership and you already allow rapid fire, I don't really see what the issue is here. My understanding of the slide fire is it's just an aid that allows the recoil of the rifle to cause the firing of the weapon when held correctly. If not, it doesn't fire. You could do the same thing with correctly timed trigger pulls. The rifle only fires as fast as it can cycle the bolt and reset the trigger….nothing like the rate of fire of a M-16A1 in full auto. Keep in mind I am something of a yahoo…...
January 22, 2008
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Guys I certainly appreciate the feedback I have gotten. I'm going to post some comments below from one of our other Board members.
I touched on the bolt carrier and I think this might explain it a bit better than I was able to due to time constraints and people attempting to talk over one another.
http://theartofarms.com/?p=107
Pay particular attention to the second paragraph below the photo labeled "non shrouded bolt carrier group".
Also, please note the following from Slide Fires question and answer section.
http://www.slidefire.com/faqs#safety
Listed under SSAR-15 questions:
Note that the first answer says the product will fit any AR15 lower, HOWEVER they recommend using their product on guns that are built to "mil spec". For those that are unfamiliar with the term, this stands for Military Specifications (full auto bolt carrier, particle tested bolt and carrier, etc.).
Listed under Safety and Usage Concerns:
Answer #2 addresses "cook offs". I touched on this briefly. Due to the cyclical rate this scenario becomes much more of a concern.
Answer #3 addresses out of battery firing. Once again, due to the extreme increase in cyclical speed this becomes much more of a concern, and has been documented to occur when bump firing on at least one online forum.
After reading through this material it's obvious that we should not allow this product to be used at our range unless the following are in place:
- A permit process in place that identifies the member and the firearm / stock combination.
- Can only be used on a mil spec gun.
- Before a permit can be given the member must bring the firearm to the range and demonstrate their ability to safely handle the gun.
Dans Club
April 18, 2014
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Those stipulations aren't a bad requirement. My investigation into product stated mil spec and would only work on M4 buffer tube.
#2 relating to cook offs I could see but anyone with sense should know that weapon platform is not ment to fire 20 or more consecutive. Short burst.. the second vid I posted , the boy spent 100 rnd magazine and tought oh thats cool the gas tube is changing color..stupid
#3 I have a little more difficulty with. The way it is made and place on the weapon...I would lan more to a dirty or poorly made AR platform. Just MO on that.
I do like the ideas for new rules to use the product at the club.
Oath Keeper #021479 NRA #206814004
Member AAGSR Member AGA #83120600233
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788
August 15, 2014
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Out of curiosity I read both links. The first was interesting, especially the footnote at the bottom. The second, somewhat like reading the possible side effects of a prescription drug. Possible..?... sure, but debatable how likely. 'Slam fires' (out of battery firing) are possible with any semi auto rifle/pistol from mechanical or ammo related reasons.
Good luck on verifying 'Mil-Spec' parts or manufacture and determining either. As you well know an AR platform rifle can be easily built from parts…..and parts swapped throughout the upper or lower assemblies. Just as some parts can be changed in most striker fired or 1911 type pistols.
Not knowing the rate of fire compared to a full auto version negates comment on the first linked article.
Hope you understand I'm not being argumentative, just pointing out some things you may hear from others. After all the AR platform is 'America's Favorite Rifle'.
Personally, I care little for the platform and think of the Slide Fire as an overpriced 'gimmick'……in an earlier, and different social-political period it may well have been offered with an 'AS SEEN ON TV' sticker.
I do admire you serving on the board of your club even though it can put you in the middle of contentious factions. Perhaps you've noticed…...
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