Register
Log In
Home
January 22, 2008
Offline
I know we were all a little shocked at the asking price of the new Dan Wesson 715's. I know we can all go out and purchase used 715's from $400 for a shooter to $800 for a NIB example. I have 4 NIB Pre-CZ Norwich produced guns and the fit and finish on them are outstanding and expect the new ones to match or exceed these. I know we would have liked the price to be in line with a S&W (686PC $769) or Ruger ($534) but maybe there reasons why this isn't possible.
A Dan Wesson is never going to be a as affordable as a Ruger simply because Ruger is an industry leader in forging. Plus Ruger can afford to sell their guns cheaper because of the volume they produce. I'm a big fan of Rugers particularly their single actions and rimfires.
Now as for being a cheap as a Smith & Wesson. The following article by Chuck Hawks is what prompted me to write this post. I'm sure we have all read post about issues with S&W so if that's what $800 buys then I will gladly pay more for a better product. I have several S&W revolvers so I'm not anti-S&W but they are all older pre-locks. Below is a link to Mr. Hawks article for those of you that are interested.
I've never had any particular desire to do an article about the dark side of Smith & Wesson, but it's time someone in the outdoor media called a spade a spade, so to speak, rather than sugar-coat it as a "manual digging implement." I'm sure that I will be accused of all sorts of bias after speaking out in this article, but the fact is that I have no personal motive, nor do I stand to profit in any way, from an S&W hit piece. Quite the contrary, as I will undoubtedly alienate some readers and a large potential advertiser.
Frankly, I don't like to write negative reviews, which is why I have usually declined to review Smith & Wesson products. However, too many readers have written asking why I haven't reviewed S&W firearms, or asking if I recommend various S&W models. Guns and Shooting Onlinereaders expect, and deserve, the truth--or at least an honest opinion. So here goes...
So maybe we need to be careful what we wish for. I would rather DW not produce revolvers at all if what we would receive are examples Mr. Hawks describes in his article. Would I like the new 715 to be less expensive, of course but not at cost of craftsmanship. I for one have never had the opportunity to purchase a new Dan Wesson revolver and I'm looking forward to it.
December 21, 2009
Offline
I am pretty sure it has a lot more to do with CZ's marketing strategy for the dan wesson brand than anything else. Before you say that there might be a good reason their prices are so high on the new 715 just look at what they have done with the extra revolver barrels they sell. Right now if I recall they want 430$ for a extra 10 inch 357 or 44 barrel and shroud. I strongly suspect that EWK's barrels and shrouds when they hit the market will be able to be sold for roughly half that price with no decline in quality if what he has already made is any indicator. I know the barrels he has already made cost a lot less than the ones CZ sells and are just as good or better. If a one man show can produce and sell a product of equal or better quality for around half what a large company can without having the advantages of being able to buy materials in considerable bulk then it it is a pretty safe bet the large company is overcharging for their product.
A revolver like the 715 doesn't have to have a MSRP of close to 1200$ for a company to make money, indeed the 715 doesn't have a whole lot of parts or a need for careful fitting by revolver standards and is rather well suited for large scale production. It is no where near as complex inside as a smith & wesson revolver. Regardless it appears CZ is and has been making an effort to turn the Dan wesson brand into limited production high dollar high profit margin guns(as they have done with the 1911's) and has no intention of trying to make DW a major player in the market as it easily could be. Frankly I would like to see CZ sell the DW brand and revolvers to some other company that will do something with it. I have not been at all impressed with CZ since they bought out DW. Ever since they bought DW out it seems like they are always wanting to just dip a toe into the water and are never willing to commit any money or effort that it would take to make DW a real success in the market and instead just try to milk the existing DW name for all it is worth and raise the prices so that Dan's are priced out of their traditional market and traditional good value. I am sorry, while the new 715 may be a good gun with a nearly 1200$ MSRP it most certainly is not a good value.
I like Dan wesson revolvers a lot but the longer CZ owns dan wesson the less I care for CZ. Hopefully at some point they will either sell DW or give me good reason to change my mind but I am not holding my breath on the latter.
As far as smith & wesson, they are having problems primarily because they have had a pretty good name for so long they started acting as as if they could get away with overpricing their guns because of the name and at the same time they let QC go down the drain. If they had kept up the quality control they could probably have gotten away with their pricing because they did indeed have a "name" that brought them a premium. However when their QC went down to only slightly better than the level of taurus and their prices were twice as much as taurus eventually it started coming back to bite them and now they are being forced to lower prices and even with that I am seeing a lot of new smiths being sold for way below MSRP.
At least rugers quality and pricing still seem to be good. I bought a brand new ruger 44 special single action about a month ago and not only was the price quite reasonable(less than half of the new DW 715 MSRP) it's trigger is better than any out of the box ruger I have ever had, and it shoots great as well. Only thing that needs to be fixed is the cheap plastic grips, but hey, I can deal with that.
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
Offline
I have felt from the very start that DW revovers would be priced at a premium, this is the pricing strategy that has proven wildly successful in recent years for 1911's. This works in the 1911 market because DW 1911's are positioned between mass market, large maunfacturers and custom manufacturer/builders.
In the DA revolver market, there are no custom manufacturer/builders, leaving DW the responsibility to create the "top of the market". If the 715 is the first step, to be followed by the Supermags and revolvers for the new and hot cartridges both in small and large frame varieties, then CZ/DW can build that top of the market very profitably, I think. I won't be able to afford them, but strengthening the brand and especially the service/support structure sure helps me out. If the brand grows, we will see the Milletts, Hogues, Burriss's, etc getting back into the accessory market.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
Supporter
Range Officer
Range Officers
May 2, 2009
Offline
I agree, and I really would ike to see the market get flooded with aftermarket items again... I'll probably never buy a new DW, simply because I have so many old ones now... and they were all bought used. Eventually I will have one of the new DW's, but I'll be the second owner, and it will be around $400...
SHOOT
January 22, 2008
Offline
I agree, the second hand market will determine the actual value of any new gun, Dan Wesson included.
CZ will have quite a struggle if they plan to bring the Dan Wesson revolvers up market. There has been a very long standing belief that DW revolvers of the past are not very expensive. Many times I have seen someone post (on other forums) about how they bought a used model 15-2 for $175 or $200. I understand this could be BS on many occasions however the belief is still there. Over the past 4 to 5 years we all know DW revolvers have been gaining in value, definetly so for the hard to find models. However, at an MSRP $1200 for a 715, it will be a tough sell. There will always be those who don't care about the cost, just to the first on their block to have one. After this, I look for the new 715 to sell well below MSRP.
-Wayne
Supporter
Moderators
January 24, 2009
Offline
Thanks for posting that link, Jody. I knew S&W had their QC issues, but didn't know the full extent of it. That must explain why they brought on their Performance Center guns, then...to appease buyers who know crap when they see it!
And look how much their PC guns cost...pretty much the same (or more) as this new 715.
Why aren't PC buyers up in arms about the cost of those guns? Presumably because they're buying a quality item & don't mind paying a little extra to get it. Just guessing on that, I don't own one yet myself. I fully expect the 715 to be a quality item too, I suppose time will tell.
October 13, 2009
Offline
Great topic and great posts! Just might add we don't know for sure where the part content of the new 715's are coming from, as I remember in another thead about the 715, all we got was a vague response if they are an entirely Norwich made gun. So it may be just like in the article where they mentioned that the S&W 1911 is assembled out of non S&W parts!
As for cost, I tend to think it could be priced alot less than $1200 quite easily. But I think the logic is not to compete with other revolvers but to offer something different, and of course make as much money as possible. 
Eric
December 21, 2009
Offline
Charger Fan said:
Thanks for posting that link, Jody. I knew S&W had their QC issues, but didn't know the full extent of it. That must explain why they brought on their Performance Center guns, then…to appease buyers who know crap when they see it!
And look how much their PC guns cost…pretty much the same (or more) as this new 715.
Actually a lot of smith fans are pretty well disgusted with the current smith & wesson company including their PC guns. Issues like this one: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=566530&highlight=smith+pc+problems are becoming almost as common as issues with makers like taurus. Only difference is you can "usually" get smith to fix it when you complain and send it back where as with taurus it still might not get fixed. Price doesn't really seem to effect quality much one way or another on the smiths otherwise we wouldn't see PC guns that come out with the same issues as their less expensive models. I really think quality in any firearms manufacturer has a lot more to do with a companies culture than it does with the price of their product. Smith bought some time when obama was elected, the resulting gun rush was a rising tide that lifted all boats, however when things started getting back to normal word of their poor QC has been getting around and now their new guns aren't selling that great or for the prices they want and as a result they are losing money and not doing very well.
January 22, 2008
Offline
Hopefully at some point they will either sell DW or give me good reason to change my mind but I am not holding my breath on the latter.Right now if I recall they want 430$ for a extra 10 inch 357 or 44 barrel and shroud. I strongly suspect that EWK's barrels and shrouds when they hit the market will be able to be sold for roughly half that price with no decline in quality if what he has already made is any indicator. I know the barrels he has already made cost a lot less than the ones CZ sells and are just as good or better. If a one man show can produce and sell a product of equal or better quality for around half what a large company can without having the advantages of being able to buy materials in considerable bulk then it it is a pretty safe bet the large company is overcharging for their product.
Recently a VH10 for a Model 15 went for $500 so the $430 would be a good buy. Now I agree they up the prices a little to much back in 2009. I would have certainly have purchased additional assemblies for all my Norwich guns had they not. We also have to keep in mind that there is more to cost than material like insurance and benefits for employees.
On the upside to this situation is that someone like Erik has an opportunity to provide a quality produce at a reasonable price. I expect once he gets rolling that he will have trouble keeping items in stock!
Hopefully at some point they will either sell DW or give me good reason to change my mind but I am not holding my breath on the latter.
I agree the best hope for a complete line of DW revolvers would be for someone to purchase the rights to produce them other than CZ. If I am not mistaken CZ is the largest firearms manufacture on the plant and if they wanted to bring the revolvers to market it would be no problem.
On the topic of customer service I have had the opportunity on a couple of occasions to speak with Keith at Dan Wesson and have them do work for me. Each time I was very please with the results.
I have only dealt with S&W Customer Service once but was please as well. My uncle bought a model 48 (no dash) that had a nice set of combat grips on it for $275. Well as many of you know the grips sell for well over a hundred on eBay. That was the good part the bad was someone probably left this in a drawer or something where moisture had totally pitted the side of cylinder that was laying down. I was able to round up a cylinder and sent everything of to S&W for a refinish. What I received back was a very nice looking model 48. After all my work rounding up the cylinder and sending it off my uncle gave it to me!
December 21, 2009
Offline
Recently a VH10 for a Model 15 went for $500 so the $430 would be a good buy.
Good buy? Your certainly entitled to your own opinion but the fact that a handful of people bid a monson VH10 in the box up to 500$ doesn't exactly make CZ's 430$ dollar shrouds a "good buy". They are still way overpriced for what they are. You can buy a very nice used dan wesson or ruger 357 for that sort of money and I seriously doubt CZ has or will sell a whole lot of 10 inch shrouds at that price. They probably sell one every now and then to someone that just has to have one and can't find one anywhere else, but that is probably about it.
On the upside to this situation is that someone like Erik has an opportunity to provide a quality produce at a reasonable price. I expect once he gets rolling that he will have trouble keeping items in stock!
Agreed. But somehow I don't think CZ has that problem right now with their shrouds or will have that problem with their revolvers unless their currently projected pricing is drastically slashed. lol I know I wouldn't recommend a new dan wesson revolver to anyone at the current pricing levels. I would tell them to wait for a nice used one or if they insisted on a new gun I would recommend they buy a ruger for half the price or less. Dan wessons are not THAT much better than their competition unless the quality and precision of these new guns just blows away anything DW ever made and is consistently very close to the quality and accuracy level of a freedom arms revolver. I doubt that is the case. I expect they will be about on par with earlier norwich revolvers. Good guns overall, but with occasional issues here and there and usually capable of small groups, but not usually as good as what freedom arms guns can do.
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
Offline
Lingering in the background here is the assumption that the new 715 will at least equal the original in quality, fit, and function. You would expect it to be at least as good, and even better for the price, but... Who Knows?
My position continues unchanged, not worth $1200+ as long as the originals are in the marketplace for 30-50% of that price.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
May 17, 2010
Offline
My posititon on the new Dw was and continues to be..wait and see. No, I don't want to pay $1200 for one... but that does not mean I would simply refuse to do so. If the money came available... and I was in the mood enough..woot!
However, My focus has been that my gun has be good (great) and competitive. DW's past has always put it in that category. But, a remake of the 715... is not competitive with guns I would have to shoot against. 100% of the revos that shoot here are smiffs. Lots, of smiffs. Most are 8 shot DA only 38 supers (though one guy has a 45), last group are .38s. I if want to play with these boys... I need a gun that can match what these guns do.
DW probably went overboard making too many different caibers and such in its past, I am not advocating that, but bringing back the 715 is not innovative. Brining back say .. the .41 or maybe mixing a revo with a semo-auto round might be neat. (I dont know if yall have noticed but .38's and .357 are going up in priced compared to the more "subsidised" .40, 9mm, and 10mm even .45 ammo.
As to smiffs: down here they RULE. To knock them in anyway is to challenge mom and apple pie. Not even Colts get the same devotion. DW's might as well not exist, they are simply dismissed, much as one a .22 as a self defense round. With Ruger and Freedom Arms making .327's, smith making .50 cals... DW needs to carve a niche other than just being expensive.
Soap Box, Ballot Box, Ammo Box
in that order.
4 Monson Model 15's
1 Palmer FB 15
1 Rossi 357 Model 92 (lever)
1 CZ 75B
January 22, 2008
Offline
As to smiffs: down here they RULE. To knock them in anyway is to challenge mom and apple pie.
The same around here although folks do seem to love their Colts as well. I guess the reason I'm drawn to DW's is because most folks don't know about them and you can get good deals if you find them local.
Your certainly entitled to your own opinion but the fact that a handful of people bid a monson VH10 in the box up to 500$ doesn't exactly make CZ's 430$ dollar shrouds a "good buy".
I'm just saying that $430 is better than $500. The 'Good Deal' part was suppose to be a little funny. I personaly would not pay that for either assembly! Well I did pay almost $300 for a Monson 745 VH6 assembly so I better not say never.
Everyone is making good points and it will be interesting to see what the future holds for the Dan Wesson Revolver. I personally don't think this is the return we were hoping for but maybe I wrong. Only time will tell...
DWF Supporters
Dans Club
Moderators
November 17, 2008
Offline
Well I guess I should throw my thoughts in the mix just to not be left out. Will the new 715 be worth MSRP? Probably not, but I hope it is! Will I run out and buy one? Probably not, but maybe after the reviews are in and I have seen one. How do I feel about Smiffs? They make nice guns, Although Clint Eastwood did more for S&W sales than the gun ever did. Colts are great but pricey also. Freedom Arms are fantastic I hear,( never had the fortune of owning one yet) But they only do single actions I believe. All this adds up to the fact that I believe Dan Wesson's are the finest double action revolver available. Which is why I hang out here and not on all those other guys forums. All of this is just MY Opinione of course and I am sure their are many who have different opiniones. I will just have to wait and see what the new 715 is worth to me. 
LB
Wisdom is merely the realization of how little one knows, therefore I am wise.
1 Guest(s)
