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Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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Let's see what we think about Stand Your Ground
Not so much on the media hype of this, but what does "Stand Your Ground" mean to you?
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
November 23, 2011
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Ok, I'll bite. Stand your ground means that you are not required to try to flee when your life is in danger. It does not mean that you must stand and fight. The rules for the use of deadly force are not changed with Standing Your Ground. No matter how bad the scum bag is, taking a life is a horrible thing. If it means saving the life of love ones or my own, then so be it.
Only a fool will stand his ground if a fight can be avoid. If the fight can not be avoid then the fool is the one that runs and gets shot in the back.
Well this is my thoughts, others mileage may differ. R S
December 26, 2010
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I agree with Rod. Stand your ground means you can stand your ground when threatened; in Kansas, you can only use deadly force when either you reasonably believe your life or health are in grave and imminent danger, or someone else's life is in grave and imminent danger. (If it safe to retreat, I will do so but I have trouble imagining a scenario that one could retreat if one's life is in grave and imminent danger. It seems to me that once the danger is that great, the time to possibly retreat is past.)
In the Martin case, I do wonder if Zimmerman was really in grave and imminent danger. He was in a vehicle. If I'm in a vehicle, I think I would duck and hit the gas if somebody pulled a gun. Martin's approaching the vehicle was a dumb thing to do. It could be seen as an aggressive action. Still, Zimmerman was in a vehicle; getting out of the vicinity seems like what should have been done. (I have been followed by private security while walking through an adjacent neighborhood. It is unnerving but I wasn't about to turn around and confront him or her. I kept thinking what I would do if he called for me to stop. Luckily he stopped following me as I left the neighborhood.)
I do wonder how accurately this is being reported. I think of the Duke lacrosse players (admittedly a bunch of punks) who were pilloried when falsely accused of rape. If there is something significant that hasn't been reported, the press is going to look awfully stupid.
Regardless of what actually happened, this shouldn't cause Florida's stand your ground statute to be revoked.
The ability to stand your ground is a powerful deterrent to an attacker. I was "interviewed" a few months ago at a gas station. Standing my ground by immediately turning, with the gas nozzle in hand, to the likely thug, stopped his approach. He had sized me up as somebody he could manipulate and intimidate. I was able to change his mind, without drawing my weapon, by standing my ground. (If he kept approaching, he likely would have gotten a gasoline bath.)
If it is being reported accurately, Martin's survivors' should seriously consider a civil suit against Zimmerman and the homes association. That is a strong deterrent to using one's weapon unless justified.
May 17, 2010
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According to the map they show, MS is such a state, though I am not so sure we "really are". MS employes the "Castle Doctrine" which mearly allows one to defend ones home and family in the home including the use of deadly force. The "home' has been extended to anyplace you have the absolute right to be by nature of your relationship to it. The car, and workplace mostly.
I support the castle doctrine fully, and KNOW it has been tested and proved. I also firmly feel it is THE deterent to home breakins. This is to the point of our local private range purchasing a .38spl for an ederly black man whos' home was broken into and he and his wife being accosted and then robbed. We have stories of bad guys being shot in the buttocks (per Forrest Gump) with a .45 just 3 blocks from where I live. The crook survived but was found guilty of having robbed 4 other homes in the area. In another part of town a black woman was on TV after shooting through her door (and in to the porch floor) thus chasing away the would be crook. That was about 6 months ago and belive me, home burglary is down even now. Pawning wore out TV's and xbox's just aint worth an angry black mother just back from pulling the night shift and being woke up by someone trying to knock down the door.
As to THIS story; I am not convinced we(media informed public) have all the facts, though the police probably do. As to the linked story, I think they are about right, there is always a group that will point to the gun saying it was at fault. Gunhaters chant is always "someone was shot, someone should pay" with the footnote that it sould never be the criminals fault as they were just doing what criminals do and should not be judged.
As to Daniel Vice's (actually its Goss) statement: yep the NRA is for the preservation of the individual at the expense of the criminal. Me too.
Soap Box, Ballot Box, Ammo Box
in that order.
4 Monson Model 15's
1 Palmer FB 15
1 Rossi 357 Model 92 (lever)
1 CZ 75B
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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Very thoughtful replies, for once (shocking, I know) I'm holding my opinion for a while. I know how I feel about Stand your Ground, I'm not sure where this case fits in.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
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Dans Club
March 27, 2009
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Ah Steve you gotta fill us in! I think the above folks say it all (at least for me)! I just wish people would do the right thing know matter!
December 26, 2010
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I started reading various reports on the Martin/Zimmerman shooting yesterday afternoon. There are some interesting points that most of the press conveniently overlooks. Yes, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to maybe chase, maybe talk to, maybe he just got out, but whatever the reason Zimmerman apparently lost sight of Martin and was going back to his vehicle. Apparently Martin then attacked Zimmerman from behind. If that is true, Zimmerman wasn't standing his ground; it is impossible to stand your ground when you are walking away from a situation. If Zimmerman had stood his ground, Martin probably wouldn't have attacked. There would have been no shooting. Apparently there is an eyewitness that saw Zimmerman on the ground with Martin on top of, and beating, Zimmerman. Zimmerman was apparently calling for Martin to stop the beating. The eyewitness went inside his house to call 911. The shooting took place while the eyewitness was inside. Zimmerman is reported to have had injuries on the back as well as the front of his head. It was also reported by another resident who was too scared to look that there was a lot of shouting before the shot was fired.
One report also disclosed that Martin did not live in the neighborhood. He was with his mother while he was serving a 10 day expulsion from high school. I haven't seen a report of what he did to get kicked out for 10 days. You can call me a harsh parent if you want but, if it were my kid, he would be grounded while serving the expulsion and if out, he would be under adult supervision.
There is a lot that went wrong with this situation. The 10 day expulsion, out of the house unsupervised while expelled, Zimmerman getting out of the vehicle, Zimmerman not watching his 6, Martin attacking Zimmerman from behind, Martin continuing the attack after Zimmerman called for it to stop. If this is true, I can see why Zimmerman wasn't arrested. This is looking more like an out of control 17 year old who started a violent encounter and paid for it. It's pretty sad but it looks like Martin started and continued the fight. If Zimmerman had not fired, it is quite possible Martin would have beaten him to serious injury or death.
August 28, 2009
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There's a lot of attention down here on the issue now.
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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I know very little about this specific case, and things really seem to get crapped up when Rev. Al "not too Sharp"ton gets involved.
I am a little concerned with the concept of Stand Your Ground if it begins to empower people to use Deadly Force to protect their "possession"of public spaces. I believe protecting one's self can include prudently retreating from a threatening situation. Carrying a gun to protect myself is one thing, moving toward a confrontation because I have a gun to protect myself is quite another.
I'm not sure what happened in this particular case, but along with exercising my right to self defense, there is the responsibility to understand "self" defense.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
December 26, 2010
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Steve,
I understand what you are saying and agree with it. A firearm is a last resort and one shouldn't provoke an attack. If anything, carrying a firearm obligates the carrier to having a calm, polite and sensible demeanor.
Still I would hate to lose stand your ground. It's a valid technique for backing down an unprovoked attack. And you don't have to have a gun to use it.
I would really dislike a duty to retreat. That puts the victim in a bad position. And how does a guy with a bad ankle (like me) retreat? I can barely outrun a stalled car 
and forget about an able bodied attacker.
I think what some people forget is civil suits are always a possibility even under Stand Your Ground shoot. The cost of defending a lawsuit is astronomical, both financially and emotionally.
If my firearm comes out, it will be a case of I have no other choice (and if I have enough distance from the attacker my cell phone will already be out)
Greg
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November 17, 2008
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I hesitated to jump in this one but here goes. I haven't followed the aforementioned case so I mon't comment on it. I am a KIS kind of guy (Keep It Simple). There are too many possible scenarios to pre-plan for them all and litigation will follow any incident with a severe out come. My plan; If the fight can be avoided avoid it, If it cannot be avoided win it.
Of course with this as all things you must be prepared to accept the concequences of your actions or in-actions.
LB
Wisdom is merely the realization of how little one knows, therefore I am wise.
April 25, 2008
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From what I have seen, this case is NOT a stand your ground case. That law does not apply in this instance. You don't follow someone and create an incident, that is not what the law is about.
The Savantist
December 26, 2010
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Well said LB. Well said IHMSA.
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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95XL883 said:
Steve,
I would really dislike a duty to retreat. That puts the victim in a bad position. And how does a guy with a bad ankle (like me) retreat? I can barely outrun a stalled car
If my firearm comes out, it will be a case of I have no other choice (and if I have enough distance from the attacker my cell phone will already be out)
Greg
Greg, I'm 100% with you on this. I will step back (retreat?) to the extent that I can, but when I have to compromise my safety, or the safety of those around me, then I'm ready to do what must be done. Even in my home, I will call for police, and hope the situation does not go critical, but when my back is at the wall and the people I love are at risk, then it's All In Time.
I'm with LB, don't fight until you must, and then WIN.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
September 30, 2011
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Can someone help me?
I'm still a little confused about what Stand Your Ground means, that's not already in the Castle Doctrine. Can someone spell it our for me once again. Sorry for the ignorance.
Thanks in Advance!
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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For me, it seems to extend the Castle Doctrine, which relates to self defense in your home or business
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine
to self defense in public areas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law
I feel that part of my ability to defend myself includes retreating first, until I can no longer safely avoid the use of force. My concern with what (I think) I understand about Stand Your Ground is that it might lead people to feel "deputized" to aggressively defend the space around them.
These are my very personal feelings, I understand everyone's right to defend themselves where and how they choose. Castle Doctrine is pretty clearly defined and accepted, Stand Your Ground opens up many more variables
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
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December 4, 2011
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No matter how you interpert it, the guy in FL actively perused an unarmed individual, created a threat scenairo in his own mind and then shot (murdered) the unarmed kid. I don't know of ANY law that is going to protect that guy. Unfortunately there are always going to be idiot among us. Its just very sad that this idiot took the life if a kid. He has also made things worse for the millions of law abiding Americans that carry a firearm for protection. In PA there is already talk of revisiting our Stand Your Ground law that just went into effect a few months ago.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
My father
If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.
My grandfather
December 26, 2010
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SCORPIO said:
No matter how you interpert it, the guy in FL actively perused an unarmed individual, created a threat scenairo in his own mind and then shot (murdered) the unarmed kid. I don't know of ANY law that is going to protect that guy. Unfortunately there are always going to be idiot among us. Its just very sad that this idiot took the life if a kid. He has also made things worse for the millions of law abiding Americans that carry a firearm for protection. In PA there is already talk of revisiting our Stand Your Ground law that just went into effect a few months ago.
I'm pretty sure we don't have all the facts. If (and that is a big if) Zimmerman had stopped pursuing and was on the way back to his vehicle and then Martin came after him then a case could be made that Martin was the attacker and Zimmerman might be entitled to claim self-defense and SYG protection. That's a big if and Zimmerman was not wise in getting into that situation.
Basically, SYG is not available to an attacker but who is the attacker can change during a situation. Let's try an extreme hypothetical situation. A homeowner is asleep in his house. At 3 am an armed intruder breaks in and attempts to kill the homeowner. The homeowner is blessed/lucky/good enough to chase the intruder out and follows him a block down the street where the homeowner kills the intruder. Clearly the intruder was an attacker initially, but a block down the street the homeowner is most likely the attacker.
I'm not an attorney. My understanding is the SYG laws vary from state to state. My understanding of Kansas law, where I live, is that the person who initiates the attack cannot invoke SYG. I'm seeing claims that under Florida law, in the right circumstances, the initial attacker might be able to claim SYG if he breaks off and retreats.
If I'm correct in my understanding, then under Kansas law, neither the intruder nor the homeowner can claim self defense and SYG protection. Under Florida law, the intruder might be able to claim self defense and SYG protection. Again, I'm not an attorney. The above is not advice. It is just my understanding.
To pick up on what LB and Steve have said above, if I can avoid a fight I will, once in a fight if I can safely break it off than I will, and once in a fight if the attacker breaks it off I will let him go.
The thing I don't want is for the victim to have a duty to retreat. If a situation arises, a duty to retreat puts another burden on the victim and in a violent situation that additional burden can be fatal to the victim. The duty to retreat varies by state and by where the victim is. A lot is dependent on local law.
It seems to be that those with agendas are using the Zimmerman/Martin case to push their agendas. And the Justice Department's involvement ups the ante. A lot rides on the facts coming out. If there really was a witness, if Zimmerman was retreating, if Martin refused to stop beating a fallen Zimmerman (remember there are a lot of ifs there), then those pushing agendas are going to look awfully foolish.
February 11, 2010
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This "kid" was a 17 year old young man, not this little pre-teen the media
keeps posting pictures of.
Martin was suspended from school for drug possession.
Zimmerman was a neighborhood watchdog. And knew Martin and
his history.
Martin was "supposedly" peddling drugs in this neiborhood being
watched by Zimmerman.
Zimmerman confronted Martin , words were exchanged, Martin
made like he had a gun in his hoodie pocket(turned out he had a bag of
skittles) Zimmerman walked away from confertation back to
his car then Martin followed, jumped Zimmerman , hitting him
and knocking him to the groud and then proceeded to bash
Zimmerman's head into concrete curbing.
Only after multiple pleas by Zimmerman for Martin to stop did
Zimmerman draw his firearm and shoot.
Now unless these media reports I have read are wrong it sounds
like a pretty cut and dry case to me.
-Blacktop
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Dans Club
December 4, 2011
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If what Blacktop posted is accurate, then I would have to agree that it was self defense. There are alot of different versions of this story floating around the net. When the full real truth comes out, then we will know for sure.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
My father
If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.
My grandfather
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