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December 19, 2015
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added note: read my last post #10 for long story on details
Some factory maximum ammo was severely over pressure specs. Now, I have a stuck brass case in my DW 40 cylinder. I tried punching it out and after much effort, I succeeded in pushing the last 1/4" of the brass out. It tore the brass wall apart at that point. I wouldn't have believed that was possible. Now, there is no bottom to the brass case. It looks like a liner to the cylinder.
Can I use a tap and die set to pull it out? It seems like it would eat into the soft brass and get a little at a time. Or does it need a .357 reamer at the blacksmith?
First time for me. I would really appreciate any experience you might have.
Prescut
March 22, 2016
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Prescut said
Some factory maximum ammo was severely over pressure specs. Now, I have a stuck brass case in my DW 40 cylinder. I tried punching it out and after much effort, I succeeded in pushing the last 1/4" of the brass out. It tore the brass wall apart at that point. I wouldn't have believed that was possible. Now, there is no bottom to the brass case. It looks like a liner to the cylinder.Can I use a tap and die set to pull it out? It seems like it would eat into the soft brass and get a little at a time. Or does it need a .357 reamer at the blacksmith?
First time for me. I would really appreciate any experience you might have.
Prescut
first off, calm down, and do not do something radical that can further damage the pistol.
id remove the cylinder from the frame right now, to prevent any mistakes that will compromise the rest of the gun, much easier to work on that way. in any event, even a gunsmith, may offer a viable solution before attempting something to result in a bad mistake.
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Dans Club
February 22, 2009
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Common occurrence in rifles (case head separation) but I don't know that there is a ruptured case extractor for a .357 that is commercially available. Take the cylinder to a smith if you cant pull it out after treating with a penetrating oil (I use Kroil).
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
March 22, 2016
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If its wedged in there tight enough that you ripped the head off by tapping from the front with a dowel, it's gonna be tight, unless the broken case fractured form the actual firing prior to trying to extract it.
trying to use a tap in there likely won't work, because its still wedging the case tighter in the cylinder...
I'd try one method myself, before freaking out totally,
I'd take a larger size stainless bore brush (.41 or .44) on a strong handle, and shove it into the breach of the stuck case...
then quickly empty a can of compressed electronics "freeze" spray into the case from the front, freeze it good and immediately try to pull it from the rear... may take a couple tries...
but unless you can shrink that stuck case slightly, i doubt if any penetrant, even PB Blaster, will help..
find something like this...
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/browse/Freeze-Spray/0000000474
you have to work fast tho, and maybe warming the cylinder prior to freezing the case, will offer double advantage
March 22, 2016
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just was looking for something else, and stumbled upon this... do some research and see if it would assist, it might just do the trick, filling the case partially, and when it cools, it will give you something solid to punch against from the front end, back..
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/462291/cerrosafe-chamber-casting-alloy-1-2-lb
here ya go...
ez pz...
December 19, 2015
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Thanks guys.
I ordered the ruptured case extractor and the chamber casting alloy. I didn't get the freeze spray because it was $9 with $10 shipping. I'll buy local.
I'll use all three and the Kroil.
thanks much rwsem and man of blues, who really went out of his way to help.
Prescut
status to follow
March 22, 2016
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Prescut said
Thanks guys.I ordered the ruptured case extractor and the chamber casting alloy. I didn't get the freeze spray because it was $9 with $10 shipping. I'll buy local.
I'll use all three and the Kroil.
thanks much rwsem and man of blues, who really went out of his way to help.
Prescut
status to follow
your welcome
you can actually pick that freeze spray up cheap and easy at most electronics stores..
be careful with the casting material also, do a little research to prevent catastrophic flame on when using it on lubed things..
or wet things..
my suggestion is to insure the inner surface of the stuck case is completely lube free and dry, and then plug it from the rear end with a patch, or even a jacketed slug lightly pressed in ( not hammered it, just pressed) to seal it...and fill the case from the barrel end, this will give a "ledge" at the case mouth / chamber transition adding to the pushing effect on it.
Then turn the cylinder barrel end down, and fill the recess behind the stuck case with whatever "super solvent/lube, PB Blaster, Or Kroil, or...whatever" and let it sit a while... mind you, the whole thing should be cool before doing that.
let us know how you make out
DWF Supporters
April 9, 2015
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What a drag. What was the Factory ammo that caused this issue for ya?
“We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is no more
humane, while his education has been sadly neglected.”
-Henry David Thoreau
“When some of my friends have asked me anxiously about their boys, whether
they should let them hunt, I have answered, yes – remembering that it was
one of the best parts of my education – *make* them hunters.”
-Henry David Thoreau
March 22, 2016
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PAbowhunter said
What a drag. What was the Factory ammo that caused this issue for ya?
my question also... I'd wanna do a pre-post mortem on some of those unfired cartridges, and pull the slug, measure the powder, measure the shell max length,and check the internals down inside around the thicker base near the head, to see if these in fact were new brass, or pre fired, and cleaned really well, and never trimmed correctly. You can feel a slight ring internally using a dentists pick, there will be a minute ring you can feel where the stretch occurs.
ive never had a pistol case do this yet, but have had them split along the side, longitudinally.. those come out easy, but leave a carbon trace in that bore, which if fired again prior to cleaning, will split every shell chambered after. Once clean, all is good.
But please let us know who manufactured the ammo, and its age, and storage.
December 19, 2015
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OK, guys, several weeks and several different techniques and the case is out. I finally worked with an old gunsmith who soaked it in kroil and then made a punch that was curved like the inside of the cylinder hole. He was barely able to tap a little on the end of the case each hit. A small amount of the case would bend and then snap off and fall through. After hundreds of taps, bends, and snaps; the case was out. It was blown so hard against the walls that there were lines on the brass case from the manufacturing lines on the cylinder walls.
Discovered the following:
each of the cylinder holes are tapered toward the chamber. Shells will not push in from that end.
hole 1 - .3825 - .381 taper
hole 2 - .380 - .380
.381 - .381
hole 3 - .381+ - .381
hole 4 - .382 - .381 taper
.381 - .381
hole 5 - .382 - .381 taper
hole 6 - .394 - .393 bulge and taper
.397
.402
The cylinder rubs on the top strap when hole 6 is at the top. It is possible to manually push past it, but a hammer pull will not do it.
The Dan Wesson may be stronger than the Tank (Ruger Blackhawk). My Ruger blew completely apart with the topstrap breaking away at the back sight (which disappeared). The case in the Ruger was ruptured all along the side from one end to the other; which is what blew the topstrap off. The Dan Wesson 40 only bulged the cylinder with the same ammo.
The way it happened:
After shooting one round in my brand new to me DW 40, I could not turn the cylinder. I didn't think too much about it. I thought it was another high primer, which I have gotten several of and reported on this forum. I didn't notice anything different in the shot. I put the DW down with my tools for later maintenance and kept shooting. It was several hours later when I picked up the Ruger Max and shot one round. It exploded. There was no doubt that the ammo was the problem. I first looked and thought Oh my Gawd, that dreaded flame cutting on the topstrap. Nope it broke on the other end. So much for topstrap flame cutting problems. I got a sickening feeling in my stomach and walked over to the Dan Wesson 40. I still had to look for a problem, but after trying to turn the cylinder, I knew it was there. Same bad ammo, two guns gone. One blew apart and one just bulged a little.
This is now beyond my skills and experience. The DW barrel looks fine. The frame looks fine. That is using eyeballs and no measuring tools. I think I need an excellent gunsmith who has seen some blown revolvers and can say whether it's worth attempting. I could just resell the parts minus the cylinder with a full story of events. I might get back half my cash. I just really hate to see a beautiful old Dan Wesson 40 SuperMag go to the dumpster. The frame is in my favorite finish, bubba plum purple. I got one shot before I killed her. No matter what happened, I still feel like crap.
Now, on to a big issue - The ammo.
I really try to be a good team member, but in this instance I have been walking a fine line.
I spoke with the owner of the ammo company on the phone and he immediately admitted that it was the ammo. He said they had problems with the maximum ammo before this. He told me to replace the two sixguns and send him the invoices which he would pay. He never asked for a sample round. He never asked for pics. He never asked if anyone was hurt. He never asked where I bought the ammo. He knew it was his mistakes that caused the accident.
He was not happy about me asking for two guns. I told him the story and asked him what I did wrong. He said you did nothing wrong, we know it's the ammo.
Two weeks later, I remembered he had not asked for my address so I emailed him my address. I wrote what a pleasure it was dealing with an owner who stood up and did the right thing. I was effusive in my praise. I told him I was willing to take what I had into the guns, and not their replacement value. I had searched for months and got two sweet deals. I figured the Ruger Max was $1000 replacement and the Dan Wesson 40 was $1200. Instead, I offered to resolve the entire matter permanently for $1500.
THE RESPONSE I GOT BACK WAS ALL IN CAPS. So, yes, now he was angry. He wrote, "I hate paying for other people's stupidity". He wrote he would pay me when he had "EXTRA MONEY" in his account. Don't bother him. I wondered who this guy really was.
I have since found his writings on Indiana Gun Owners Organization ingo.com. He is one angry, aggressive, belligerent guy. He has more than a few other people very upset with him.
I am a small business man myself. I would hate for someone to malign me unfairly. I think this guy and his staff just made a mistake. It happens. His company appears to be medium successful and sells nationally. I believe he does all the reloads for the big police departments in Indiana. His responses to customers have been very aggressive, blaming them each time. I took the ammo back to the gun store that sold it to me. They said they had not been contacted about bad ammo. They are tracing where they got it now. The gun store has called the manufacturer twice to get a refund themselves on the ammo and see why he hasn't issued a recall on that bad ammo.
I have not said anything before this about him or his company, although many of you here and other forums have asked. I have tried to calm down and let go of the paranoia of shooting that inevitably follows an event when you could have been killed or wounded. I am 70 miles from a city out in the desert canyons camping solo for weeks at a time. My family has now had their intervention and asked me to stop shooting those high pressure rounds like the 357 max and the 44 mag. They also don't want me in the backcountry alone anymore. That aint happening. It's just one more piece of fallout from a dangerous hobby that I don't need.
So am I just a big Cry Baby trying to gouge a vendor? Or should I hand this to an attorney and try to find out if he is engaged in dangerous, negligent business practices. Saying his company name on a forum is sure to get him pizzed off again. Even if he somehow gets "EXTRA MONEY" in his account, I don't think I will ever see it. He has absolutely refused to even talk about an estimated date for payment. Attorney retainer is $5000 and is not retrievable in the suit. If someone gets killed from this ammo, and I have done nothing, I will feel like scum the rest of my life. SO
PRECISION CARTRIDGE out of Indiana. I see lots of people selling their ammo. I read good reviews as well as bad. I had to guarantee the owner I will not be using his ammo ever again for him to talk to me. I have asked lots of folks now about Precision Cartridge and several have said they know the company name and have shot lots of their ammo.
Whew, enuf!
trying to do the right thing,
Prescut
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Dans Club
February 22, 2009
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CYA: call your attorney. Not good any way you slice it. Demand full replacement cost and damages for mental trauma... I'm not a person who normally recommends something like that but it's a matter of Safety, which I don't take lightly.
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
DWF Supporters
April 9, 2015
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Well you saved me from ever buying it. Glad I reload. Just wish I could get some good to better brass for the MAXI
“We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is no more
humane, while his education has been sadly neglected.”
-Henry David Thoreau
“When some of my friends have asked me anxiously about their boys, whether
they should let them hunt, I have answered, yes – remembering that it was
one of the best parts of my education – *make* them hunters.”
-Henry David Thoreau
December 19, 2015
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One of the stranger outcomes is that I now trust my reloads more than factory.
Prescut
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Dans Club
December 4, 2011
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Send the Dan back to Norwich and have them see if it's fixable and if so have tmlhem do the work. Thanks for the heads up on that ammo and glad you are alright.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
My father
If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.
My grandfather
December 4, 2012
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WOW!, Some of the reviews I've read are just down right scary, sounds like your not the first one that this is happened to..
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DWF Supporters
Dans Club
December 4, 2011
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What did they load those with? That cylinder is the same one as on a 445 and with more metal still remaining due to smaller cartridge. I've shot some HOT 445's and never bulged a cylinder, so I can't imagine how they screwed up enough to do the kind of damage you experienced. Wonder what powder and how much they used? They are lucky nobody has been seriously injured or killed by those loads. I would think they have some culpability by knowingly selling defective ammo. and not recalling it.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
My father
If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.
My grandfather
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November 17, 2008
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Wonder what powder and how much they used?
Obviously we will never know but I almost have to wonder if it went something like he used bullseye power at a W296 load. Of course I have no clue what would happen, but I don't intend to find out.
At least no one was hurt.
LB
Wisdom is merely the realization of how little one knows, therefore I am wise.
February 16, 2016
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Do you still have some of the defective ammo ?
I believe it would be an interesting exercise to pull a bullet and measure the propellant and inspect it to try and identify it from grain appearance.
December 19, 2015
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I did pull a few bullets almost immediately. I found I believe flake powder that was so heavily compressed that I had to dig it out of the case to weigh it - approx 24g. The vendor is not telling what kind of powder. I was surprised that the granules seems to stick together as if moist.
The primers were merged with the brass casing absolutely flat. Without color difference, it was hard to tell the two apart.
pics to follow including powder
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