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December 19, 2015
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Let me start by saying I have been an Elmer Keith fan for a long time. I just don't seem to get good groups no matter what I do reloading with the Keith SWC design. My other SWCs are some of the very best.
Shooting 38 special, 357 Magnum, 357 maximum, 44 special, 44 Magnum, 45 acp, 45 colt
I have used BullsEye, TiteGroup, TrailBoss, HS-6, W231, VV340, 4227 in groups of 5 different weights each.
I have used Frontier, Berrys, Zero, Hornady, and 4 private Casters.
I shoot thru a chronograph and capture 12 different variables in my log besides group size. Most of my group sizes at 25 yards from table rest are around .5" to 2.0". My Keiths are like 3 and 4". The Keith cast bullets measure consistent weight, size, and quality. This seems to hold true, no matter the caliber.
My results clearly show that my Keith bullets are the worst of the entire collection. I made 5 recipes using different powder weights for each of the 7 powders. That makes 35 groups to shoot. When I swapped in 1 of the 8 bullets in each group, I got up to 280 groups to shoot.
At the end; I felt like I knew what bullet to shot, with what quantity, of what powder to get the best group in that gun. The data showed the Keith design consistently at the bottom of this testing; no matter the powder or the weight.
Also, the Keith cast SWC bullet is extra long. Trying to get a COL within limits can be difficult.
The first issue I would like to raise is speed. I don't like painful recoil so I aim for 900 - 1000fps. Some of you may have noticed there was no H110 or W296. I can't safely download those per the manual and Hodgon.
So, I ask the question, Does Keith bullets require heavy Keith loads of powder (pressure) to function effectively?
Or a second question; I have standardized my test guns to S&W19 with Nikon scope, and an Abilene 44 with scope. Is it possible that these two guns which shoot everything else the absolute best, just don't like the Keith?
Or taking a different tact, tell me about your recipes and how you got there with Keith bullet designs.
I don't want to give up on the Keith, I gotta think it's just me.
September 15, 2016
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This is a quote taken from a letter sent to a Cast Bullet vendor with regards to his molds that were very close to the "True Keith Design". The letter is not mine, is not in my hands, but the quote is taken because I think it addresses just what you are wondering.
I don't know where you got your designs, but I can tell some of
them are terribly close to the actual designs.....so close, that I can't
help but wonder if they aren't exact copies......which is not only fine,
but to be commended. In fact, some of the actual designs (.357) won't
work in all revolver throats.....due to the length of the front driving
band, which won't let the forward band clear the chamber throat when
normally seated, with some revolver chambers.........but according to
Elmer....that front band was critical at magnum velocities.....and the
dimensions of that front band was one of the things that he had stressed
but USUALLY got thinned down by the manufacturers..... The steel masters
were made, for the then four major magnum pistol calibers.....357, 41,
44 and 45........only.
I am still new to the cast bullet game. The mold I am borrowing is an older Lyman 358429, which I have been told by the person loaning it to me is the most accurate of his "Keith Style" molds in .357 for his guns, BUT, he has never owned, shot or loaded for a DW. I myself don't have any .357 molds, so when he offered, I wasn't going to turn him down. I think the biggest issue with "Keith Style" is that they are a "Style". As the letter states, Keith himself had a preference that the designers shied away from in their final designs. We also know, the man liked his Full House Loads. So it isn't surprising that the design might not be happy with softer loads.
December 19, 2015
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thanks pinsandscrews,
I think that is exactly what I needed. I was surprised that more folks haven't used the Keith boolit and had some kind of feedback for us.
I'll try some full bore hot loads with the Keith boolits and see if my groups shrink.
Like your article stated, I found the cartridge overall length (COL) was too long, except for my S&W model 19. It has a longer cylinder than the rest.
Several folks recommended to seat the boolit a little deeper, but the Keith boolit is already deeper than any others I have. I needed to watch I wasn't compressing powder.
You also raise the issue of what really is a Keith Style boolit. Without using his specs, the cast boolit is just a generic.
Have we come so far that newer cast boolits are much better than the 1920s design by the master?
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