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October 11, 2009
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Would someone please tell me the proper primers to use with the following powders in my 445 SM using Starline Brass. I have found conflicting load data on the primers.
Standard Large Pistol and Magum Large Pistol primers listed sometimes for each of the powders I use.
Would you please make it simple for me.....or maybe it is not a big deal, tell me if that is so.
H110/W296
IMR 4227
1680
5744
LIL GUN
Also what do you think is the #1 powder for 240 gr jacketed and 300 gr cast?
Thanks a bunch,
DooM
January 17, 2010
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I use 240 jacketed XTP's. with Lil gun loaded to 31.8gr. with CCI large pistol mag primers. (trying to stretch the case life of the 300 I have and works ok for me out to 120yds so far)
Shot a can of H110, it was ok. but Lil gun seems to be more accurate for me and less flash also. 8" bbl by the way.
I tried fed large mag pistol and rem large pistol regular, no noticable diff shooting but chrony averaged a bit slower with the regular remys. Im not a CCI fan but I tried some and got good consistency and a good deal on a thousand so thats what I'm using now.
Heard a tale about the possibility of a mag primer popping the bullet from case before sufficient powder is lit......I crimp decent right in the cannelure which should negate this.
Haven't loaded or shot any cast out of supermag yet.....
Heard talk once of using large rifle primers but found the cup is too deep and wont seat all the way flush with case
Called Seirra once for load data for thier match 44 bullets and was told by them to use mag pistol primers only.
Also the lighter bullets were less accurate than the 240's and I also snugged the barrel gap down which made a diff too.
This of course is all my $.02 obviously what works for one may not for another etc etc.
hope this helps.
"experience is the hardest teacher, the test comes before the lesson"
Range Officer
Range Officers
Dans Club
February 9, 2009
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Wow, this may get interesting till its solved 
. I have only ever used large rifle primers in any of the three larger Supermag calibers. Every recipe I have ever seen in print specifically called out for large rifle primers and not pistol primers. I have never had a primer seating problem in my years of loading the Supermags. I primarily use Federal primers for this set of cartridges. I have loaded them with H-110, H4227, IMR-4227 and AA1680. I have not used the other referenced powders. So much for my .02.....
A man cannot have too many SuperMags
Range Officers
February 25, 2009
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The original 445 brass was made from rifle brass thus used rifle primers. I do belive the IHMSA headstamped brass was also made for rifle primers. Straline brass is made with pistol primer pockets but can be reamed to rifle depth. Here is the info direct from the Starline site;
445 SUPER MAG (Large Pistol primer) 1.600"-1.610" O.A.L. (Backordered expected availability: NEXT RUN WHEN SUFFICIENT BACKORDER ACHEIVED ) Designed by Elgin T. Gates for silhouette shooting, the .445 Super Magnum is a heavy duty, lengthened version of the .44 Magnum. Guns have been manufactured by Dan Wesson and Thompson/Center. Primer pocket must be reamed deeper if you wish to use Large Rifle primers.
Pack: 250 (+$127.80)500 (+$190.15)1000 (+$331.20)
Looking at 445 data it does not run case pressure much if any more then the standard 44 mag so rifle primers are not necessary for high pressure. BUT be very careful to know what primer pocket depth you brass has. A fifle primer in a pistol pocket could be very dangerous in a revolver. And a pistol primer in a rifle depth pocket might not get enough pin strike to ignite well or at all.
Ok so there are the facts on 445 cases and what primers fit what cases. IMHO you don't need magnum rifle primers to light off a 445. It's not a belted mag with 80+ grains of powder. If your brass uses rifle primers I'm sure a standard primer is all that's need with any sutiable powder. I do use mag pistol primers for most of my 445 loads, mostly H110 and 1680. I would think the mag pistol primer has got to be close to the power of a standard rifle primer.The case is big on a 445 and the slow ball powders like H110/W296 usually neeed a good crimp and spark for them to prefrom well.
As far as the data goes from different sources it's a craps shoot. Hornady shows IHMSA brass with pistol magnum primers and the Sierra data shows IHMSA brass with standard rifle primer. The case can handle either. So here is where the fun begins with any "wildcat" cartridge, know the facts, select your componants and see what works best in your gun.
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
~Thomas Jefferson~
Range Officer
Range Officers
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February 9, 2009
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Tigger,
All I own and load is Satrline and have always used Rifle primers. In what way do they not technically fit?
A man cannot have too many SuperMags
Range Officers
February 25, 2009
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The LP primer is 0.120 inch in height just like the SP and SR primers. The LR primer is slightly taller at 0.128 inch. That .008" can make the primer surface be above the bottom of the case, and can be even more if the case has a slightly shallow pocket. In a revolver under recoil the cases move back against the recoil shield during the recoil cycle and if the primer is above the case head it will be driven into the pocket by the recoil shield and could cause an ignition of that chamber not inline with the bore.
Just specualtion on my part but every now and then we see a revolver with two chambers blow out, and most of the time it looks like an overload/double charge. But what if the powder charges were correct and the guy reloading used the wrong primer by mistake and didn't clean the primer pockets as well as he should have and then didn't seat the primer fully in a case that had a shallow primer pocket. That "tall" primer could very well have lit the cartridge beside the one in battery and bad things happened.
I have the carbide primer pocket uniformers and uniform all my pockets before I load them. It's suprising how much brass will come out of some pockets.
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
~Thomas Jefferson~
January 17, 2010
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SMF, I am using starline also. tried both fed and rem rifle primers and found them both too tall a smidge. Could it be my batch of starlines are older/newer than yours? I check all my primers by placing them on a good spot on my desk and see if they rock on the portruding primer. I do this to check that i have them seated enough....then when I was talking to sierra i learned rifle primers are actually made bigger...longer/deeper??
Tnx for the info tigger. makes alot of sense now.
so you guys like or prefer the H110? Maybe I'm missing something during my eval. or could be a gun preference thing.
Guess Doom's question is really answered......measure primer pocket? I know I learned sumptin'.
"experience is the hardest teacher, the test comes before the lesson"
November 14, 2009
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The 445 Super Mag is the largest and most potent
descendant of the true 44 family of cases. Designed by IHMSA founder Elgin
Gates, the 445 had just begun production when Gates died in 1988. Conceived as a
cartridge for metallic silhouette competition, the 445 does indeed provide
reliable knockdown on the heavy steel rams at 200 meters. Based on a lengthened
44 Magnum case, the 445 offers a significant increase in performance over its
shorter counterpart, particularly with heavier bullets. The 445 generated a
short bit of interest among the silhouette clan, but its recoil is a bit much
for a 40, 60 or 80 round match. Today, 445 Super Mags are rarely seen in
competition, but it continues to see considerable use as a hunting cartridge.
With its extra capacity, only the slowest burning handgun propellants are
suitable to the 445. In general, best accuracy will be obtained near or at
maximum loads. Naturally, muzzle blast can be severe. Producing some 200 fps
more velocity than the smaller 44 Magnum, the 445 Super Mag may require a period
of adjustment, even for experienced shooters. With practice, however, tolerance
for the 445's rather sharp recoil can be developed. In the hands of a competent
shooter, the cartridge itself is capable of producing excellent accuracy.
Considering the range of slow burning propellants used in the 445, handloaders
are strongly cautioned not to use loads lower than the listed minimum shown in
the manual. For this same reason, this is another cartridge that truly requires
a very firm crimp. If less recoil is desired, a 44 Magnum, or for that matter,
44 Special cartridge can be used. In our testing, we found we were still able to
get surprisingly good accuracy when 44 Magnum ammunition was used, despite the
long jump from case mouth to forcing cone. At the time of this writing, Wesson
Arms remains the only revolver to be chambered for the 445 Super Mag.
Found this in my Sierra reloading dvd
Happyness is a Hot DW and a pile of used brass!!! Rich
November 14, 2009
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| 445 Super Mag |
||||||||
| Primer: | Federal 210 | Test Firearm: | Dan Wesson M445V86 | |||||
| Case: | IHMSA | BBL Length: | 8" | |||||
| Twist: | 1x18 3/4" | Trim-to Length: | 1.600" | |||||
| Bullets: | ||||||||
|
||||||||
| Powder/Velocity | 1200 | 1250 | 1300 | 1350 | 1400 |
| 296 | 25.9 | 27.4 | 28.9 | 30.4 | |
| H4227 | 24.8 | 26.2 | 27.5 | ||
| AA-1680 | 26.6 | 29.0 | 31.4 | 33.9 | |
| Energy/ft.lbs. | 959 | 1041 | 1126 | 1214 | 1305 |
| Accuracy Load: H4227/ 27.5grs. 1300fps/ 1126ft. lbs. | |||
| Hunting Load: AA-1680/ 33.9grs. 1350fps/ 1214ft. lbs. |
Copyright 2003
Sierra Bullets, LLC.
Happyness is a Hot DW and a pile of used brass!!! Rich
October 11, 2009
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I guess my post was not clear. As I am using Starline brass, I use pistol primers only.
My confusion is in what one, STANDARD LARGE PISTOL PRIMER OR MAGNUM LARGE PISTOL PRIMER?
1680 Std or Mag?
IMR 4227 Std or Mag?
H110/ W296 Std or Mag?
Thanks,
D00M
November 14, 2009
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Sierra suggest Federal 210 as I posted above and they are Large Rifle Primers. I believe they will fit in the large pistol primer pocket.
Happyness is a Hot DW and a pile of used brass!!! Rich
October 11, 2009
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Mox-CT....I have a thousands of LG PISTOL PRIMER STD AND MAG.....I am gonna use em.......LOL I hope. Just not sure what primer with what powder. My Starline clearly states it is a LG PISTOL PRIMER POCKET.....
There is so much conflicting info on the 445 and I bet on the 414 as well. Being the ammo was never factory made in large quanity and both being wildcats and all.
Thanks,
DooM
March 10, 2010
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D00M said:
I guess my post was not clear. As I am using Starline brass, I use pistol primers only.
My confusion is in what one, STANDARD LARGE PISTOL PRIMER OR MAGNUM LARGE PISTOL PRIMER?
1680 Std or Mag?
IMR 4227 Std or Mag?
H110/ W296 Std or Mag?
Thanks,
D00M
I would use the magnum primer regardless of what powder you choose. Outside of a possible slight ignition advantage, magnum primers handle magnum pressures of the 445 better than standard large pistol primers. There's a chance of getting flattened primers when you haven't reached peak operation pressures if you use standard primers. With that being said, case head expansion should be used to determine peak pressures instead of just checking your primers for high pressure signs. A sticky case is a good way of determining if high pressures are present, while measuring with a micrometer is your best option.
Range Officer
Range Officers
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February 9, 2009
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I am no expert at all, but I was loading some 414SM ammo just two nights ago and had remebered this post, every one of my cases received a large rifle primer and they do not have any problem being flush or less than flush with the case head, for what it is worth??
SMF
A man cannot have too many SuperMags
April 25, 2008
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That is because the .414SM cases were made for rifle primers, whereas the .445SM cases were made for pistol primers.
The Savantist
Range Officer
Range Officers
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February 9, 2009
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IHMSA80x80 said:
That is because the .414SM cases were made for rifle primers, whereas the .445SM cases were made for pistol primers.
I did not know that, I will be checking that out on my 445's staright away though, thanks IHMSA.
SMF
A man cannot have too many SuperMags
April 25, 2008
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Starline's website says the .445SM primer pockets must be reamed out to use large rifle primers.
The Savantist
November 14, 2009
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IHMSA80x80 said:
Starline's website says the .445SM primer pockets must be reamed out to use large rifle primers.
I don't know why Starline would say that, they measure the same + or - .001. I just measured a large pistol primer by Remington at .210" and measured a federal rifle primer at .211"
Happyness is a Hot DW and a pile of used brass!!! Rich
Supporter
Range Officer
Range Officers
May 2, 2009
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The reaming is for the depth, not the diameter. LR primers tend to stick up a little higher.
SHOOT
April 25, 2008
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Dale just pointed this out to me last night. The .414SM cases on Starline's website say they are for Large Pistol Primers. They do NOT have this note similar to the one for their .445SM cases:
"Primer pocket must be reamed deeper if you wish to use Large Rifle
primers."
For .414 cases, perhaps they have already made the brass deep enough for rifle primers. I thought for sure my original run of .414 brass was for Large Rifle primers. Maybe the latest run has been changed to pistol pockets? I'm pretty sure I never had to cut those primer pockets any deeper, and I've been using Federal 210 primers since Day 1 in 1995.
The Savantist
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