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January 24, 2009
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After all these years, I have yet to jump into the fun of reloading my own. I've meant to, but for one reason or another, it hasn't happened.
With the rediculous price of factory loads these days & questionable availability, I would like to start doing my own. The problem is that there's so many different setups out there to choose from, that I'd rather not go by the word of some gun store clerk as to which one I should buy.
So with an interest of keeping my initial trial and error experiences to a minimum before finding that perfect setup, I'll ask you guys. The dies themselves seem to be fairly easy to decide on, but the main basic machine part is what I'm at odds on. I'm hoping to buy one central system, then be able to expand on that as I need.
What do you guys use?
Oh & preferrably only made in the U.S., no sellouts to China for me.
February 4, 2009
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Hey Charger.
I guess, much like anything else, it depends on what you want to accomplish and how much you are prepared to spend.
I chose to go with a Redding T7 Turret. I am fairly new to reloading myself, and chose to go with a press other than progressive. The problem with a progressive is that with one pull of the handle, you just performed 4-5 different tasks at once. If any one station is set up improperly, you may or may not notice a problem until multiple rounds are produced.
To make matters even worse, you may find out there was a problem when you attempt to shoot the reload- this is definitely not the time to find out that you put a double charge into a case, or no charge causing a squib during rapid fire.
The beauty of the turret is that you don't have to swap and adjust dies constantly. The T7 gives you 7 die stations so you can set and forget for the most part. Also, when you perform a single step with 1 pull of the handle, you can verify and double check the result before manufacturing 50 rounds. I've had excellent results with the Redding and can keep runout on my 223 reloads to less than .001" . I highly recommend the Redding but it is one of the more expensive turrets available- you get what you pay for.
A progressive will allow you to comfortably produce huge amounts of ammo an hour. I don't shoot enough to justify having a press that will produce 500rds/hr- not to mention that I prefer to see results one stage at a time, for safety reasons. I can comfortably push out 150 rds/hr with the Redding- that's plenty if I spend a couple hours a week reloading.
February 4, 2009
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Just an afterthought....
Another nice thing about the Redding is it's solid and is pretty small compared to a Dillon or Hornady press. This may or may not make a difference depending on the amount of room you have available to devote to reloading chores. In the pic, there is a 1lb. jug of powder to give you a size idea- the jug is 6" tall.
Maybe others will chime in with their thoughts.
April 25, 2008
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The T7 is a great press, but a little pricey. A good single-stage, like the Redding Boss, or RCBS Rockchucker works just fine. I use my single-stage a lot, but I also have a Dillon 550B. I'm usually not reloading huge amounts at a time, so most of the time, the Dillon gets used as a fancy single-stage.
The type press used is not as important as good dies, properly set up, and a good reloading technique. My 35 year-old Lee Challenger aluminum press (the one I started out with) has reloading thousands of rounds used in silhouette competition...all of them accurate enough to hit every shootoff you correctly point the gun at.
The Savantist
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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In the good old days (real old days now) I reloaded on a Rockchucker single stage. If I were dong this now I would go with one of the turret presses. Although I did feel a real sense of craftsmanship with the single stage, my goal now would be production capacity, I think.
Steve
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
February 4, 2009
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IHMSA80×80 said:
The T7 is a great press, but a little pricey. A good single-stage, like the Redding Boss, or RCBS Rockchucker works just fine.
The type press used is not as important as good dies, properly set up, and a good reloading technique. .
I would agree with IHMSA on most of his points, including technique, proper set up, and quality dies being important. All of this is very sound advice.
I also agree with IHMSA that a good single stage will work just fine.
However, when it comes to turret presses, I believe that the press becomes more of a variable to ammo quality (or lack thereof) than dies, due to the nature of the press design. Obviously, if the turret is moveable, there has to be built in slop to allow for this movement.
A $90 competition die set is a waste of money, IMO, if the turret itself has a significant amount of flex. If you only reload for plinking ammo vs. match ammo, runout may be totally irrelevant to you in which case any decent press, of any nature, should suffice.
If you are going to utilize a single stage RCBS or Redding, which will likely outlive you, invest in good dies and take time with your set up and technique, and you will be rewarded with the best possible ammo.
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January 24, 2009
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Thanks for the info, you guys.
I don't mind paying more for a good tool...I'm always that way with car tools, because I'm familiar with what to look for. I just don't know what I'm looking for with reloaders, so I really appreciate the input.
I had a friend back in the 90's that reloaded quite a bit & he used a Rockchucker. I did notice that he would not get his loads all equal & sometimes the shells would get a bit bloated looking in the middle. I just didn't know if that was to be blames on his reloader, or the fact that he probably wasn't paying attention duting the process. I kinda think it's the latter. LOL!
Plus, he liked to experiment with hot loads...he ended up ruining his Anaconda because of it.
Ok, well I'm going to go scope out my options tomorrow at Cabelas. I will probably stay away from a progressive setup, because don't run through enough ammo to warrant the expense. I will report back on my findings.
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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Charger- He WAS NOT paying attention, and that is one thing you cannot do when reloading. The old saying to "measure twice before you cut once" in carpentry really applies to reloading. You need to be as careful about your reloading as you are about your shooting, or something can go very badly wrong, as you saw with his Anaconda.
Steve
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
January 4, 2009
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CHARGER... I'm at the exact cross roads you are... however I have reloaded before..
like ... good grief.. 40 years ago..!!!
Ok. back then I had a single stage Pacific "C" tool.. ( I'm thinking of donating it to the Smithsonian... or not !! LOL), Seriously.. I loved that single stage.. and would most like still use it to run a small batch to play with getting the right powder/ bullet combo.. then transfer that data to the turret to produce after field trials . Back then I loaded for .30-06 and .44 mag.. and I also loved that feeling of slow and steady craftsmanship.. always paid attention to every detail.. it was fun..
Now I've got .22 hornet, .223, .30-30, .30 carbine and .380 ACP. That's a lot of setting up single stage dies to do.. 5 rifle and 2 pistol calibers..so I"m leaning toward the RCBS turret.. but am open to that Redding !
QUESTION FOR"CDF 294".. is that R7 cast or aluminium press? And is there any "slop" in your R7 Redding ?
And is it easy to change the turret heads with the dies all set up in it. ( I am correct is saying that all you do is change heads out, I know the shell holders , primer may need changing depending on calibers ) .
Do YOU load multiple calibers ?
Does ANYONE on this forum. and if so What press are you using to do it on ?
Also would be interested in tips on powder charging. ( back in the day I had to hand measure on a balance scale each and every load, then put a funnel over each shell and drop in.. hard to make a mistake but took some time).
I'm not going to be loading 500 rds an hour..so most likely am not looking for huge production numbers.( but who knows what the future will bring about these days?)
Please keep me posted a CHARGER FAN and I will do likewise.. I ran across a guy selling presses and related stuff at a gun show in Greenville SC last week end,( big show, no DW stuff at ALL !!), and he had some good prices.. I'll be glad to pass along his name to you after I check out his pricing.. Also I would check out the folks at RRARMS
http://www.rrarms.com/index.php
They seemed willing to deal..
Hey if, ( big "IF") we decide on the same press.. perhaps we can work it to our advantage to get a better price.. anyway .. I'll keep you posted on my findings as well.
Wayne
February 4, 2009
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Wayne,
The Redding is cast iron. As for movement in the turret head, yes- the Redding has some movement, especially when camming over while FL resizing bottleneck rifle cases. It doesn't move noticeably when seating, expanding, or neck sizing though.
I think is it simply the nature of a turret press design. I had decided to go with a turret because I do reload multiple calibers, currently 357Max, 223, 9mm, and soon to add 44mag and 445SM to the mix.
As I mentioned previously in this thread, even with the movement, I am still able to keep my runout below .001″ on my rifle rounds, which is impossible to complain about. I've opened a brand new box of Federal Match ammo and seen more runout. I have to be honest though and disclose that I haven't checked runout specs on my pistol/revolver ammo- I am much better with a rifle than pistol or revolver, so I am not near as critcal about runout. I suspect as long as my reloading components are uniform, I should be able to expect similar results with pistol ammo as I obtain with rifle ammo.
On the note of changing heads, I haven't done it on mine yet. I need to invest in another head myself since I will probably use 2 sets of dies for 44mag and 445 Supermag. Removing the dies for my rifle to load 9mm or 44mag won't fly for long. It does appear that it would be a quick and painless operation to change the head though. The Redding head is probably a 5lb chunk of cast iron and is a littlle pricier than the other green, red, and possibly blue manufacturers heads. They aren't super expensive but run around $70 or so. BUT, you can do 3 rifles, 2 rifles and 1 pistol, or 2 pistols on the same head- you won't have much luck doing that with the other manufacturers. It's almost like buying 2 heads instead of one.
I am one of those people who is prone to researching things to death before making any decisions. I would recommend taking all opinions, including mine, with a grain of salt. Best recommendation I could make to you is to get some opinions, decide what you have an interest in, and then spend some time scouring for related info on Google.
February 2, 2009
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I started with the Lee single stage set with dies for my 38/357 over 20 years ago. It was relatively inexpensive and produced quality reloads. I upgraded to a Lee turret and made fair to poor ammo. There are lots of variables; some powders wont pour the same consistantly in some powder droppers. Through trial and error; I got the turret to work relatively consistantly, but for match grade ammo; nothing beats the single stage. With the single stage you are the only point of error. With the turret; it can fail to prime or drop inconsistant powder, and you usually end up with several bad rounds. If you make a mistake with a single; you fix it or remove it and move on. I still have my 20+ yr old Lee single and it works as good as new.
December 17, 2008
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This is a very informative thread!
I'm in the same boat with Charger - have never reloaded but am always flirting with the idea since I was a kid. Been checking out the Hornady deals on Midway but have absolutely no frame of reference to base a decision on. (Hard to ignore that they'll give you 1000 bullets with your purchase...but I think that is with a progressive, which from your posts I see is probably not the best place to start).
I like Wayne's idea: if a "best system" is determined maybe we get a price break and buy a few. Don't know if anyone will price break for 3 systems but count me in!
Also a good reference on Georgia Arms - those "canned heat" prices are hard to beat, though like every one else they have just posted a "shipping delay" notice due to unmeetable demand.
January 4, 2009
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Thanks Robhof.. your comments are all true.. and .. DARN... I am not looking forward to threading in and out all those dies for every caliber...hahahaha...
I'm stubborn and will , like you CDF294 , research this to death.. and thanks for YOUR comments as well.
CDF294 .. I did notice you use that term "runoff" in your other posts.. what is runoff anyway ?
Also...WHY can you do " 3 rifles, 2 rifles and 1 pistol, or 2 pistols on the same head-".. I mean how does that work.. all the dies are caliber specific are they not ?
HOW IS the turret head rotated.. is it turned by hand, "dropping" into a notched position or does it rotate automatically with each pump of the lever/handle ?
BTW.. am I correct in thinking.. or understanding that with a "turret" head the top turret with your dies set up in it moves.. or rotates, while the cartridge remains stationary below. And in a Progressive press the cartridges move around as you work the handle and the cartridges move around so that you are having multiple cartridges moving around below the stationary upper head that holds the dies..and that is why you are getting more production out of each handle pump is this correct ?
And if that IS how these two systems operate.. then am I wrong in thinking that a progressive press would be a more stable platform since each cartridge is the only item moving and the dies are held solidly in the stationary head VS. the moving head, ( which HAS to move to make the turret system work !!)
AM I getting this correct.. or if not PLEASE enlighten me.. so much of reloading with regard to presses and terms are different now and I would appreciate the corrections and amplifications .
Thanks,
Wayne
PS CHARGER FAN... "22" TODAY.. A NEW HIGH MATH SCORE FOR ME..
WHOOO 
!!
February 4, 2009
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Wayne-
I will try to clarifythings a bit better- it sounds like I may have confused you. I don't find that surprising though since I've been sick for a week, and the Dr. told me yesterday that I am in the beginning stages of Pnuemonia.
Runout- I am reffering to the concentricity of the ammo produced. If you have, for example, .005" runout on your bullet, the bullet is not going to going to leave the case in a uniform fashion. Uniformity= consistency. Ideally, every bullet is aligned perfectly to the case. If your case neck has runout, again, your bullet does not leave perfectly aligned to the bore. This, in a way, is truly nitpicking the quality and consistency of each round. Uniformity is the key to consistency. Another example- Lets say you have 5 rounds of ammo. 4 rounds have less than .001" runout and the 5th has .006", I guarantee that round #5 will be what we call a flyer. You just cloverleafed the first 4 shots on your target and now the 5th is sitting out 1.5" from the rest of the group. Everything being in perfect alignment is part of the accuaracy equation.
OK- "why can I do 3 rifles, 2 rifles and 1 pistol, or 2 pistols ?" .
What I meant by this is: due to the 7 holes in the press head, you can use 2 sets of 2 dies for realoading rifles and 1 set of 3 dies for a pistol (a total of 7 dies), or 3 sets of 2 dies for rifle calibers (6 dies), or 2 sets of 3 dies for 2 pistols (6 dies). Hopefully this makes more sense to you.
Keep in mind that the RCBS turret has 6 holes in the head- this means you could not use 2 rifle 2 die sets and 1- 3 die pistol set. ( a total of 7 dies)
The turret head is rotated by hand and has detents to align the station (hole for die). One pull of the handle sends the case into the die for whatever operation you are trying to perform, and pushing the handle drops the case from the die.
The progressive on the other hand (at least the Dillon), has the dies mounted in the top of the press. One pull of the handle sends a 4-5 hole plate (with 4-5 cases) into the dies mounted in the top of the unit. You push the handle back up, the plate with the cases comes back down (since it attaches to the ram) and the plate indexes to the next station.
Now take notice that the progressive also has potential for "slop". Why? Because you have a plate attached to the ram that has to be able to move.
Robhof mentioned a Lee turret design. I am not going to bash any manufacturer or attempt to push anyone in any particular direction. The Lee that robhof owned is a good example of an inexpensive press with "too much slop". Match grade ammo can be produced with a turret or progressive press, but you have to buy a high quality press.
Also as robhof mentioned, a single stage press will give you match grade ammo. Why? One word- CONSISTENCY.
Don't overload yourself with too much info and don't read too much into it. If you want ZERO possibility of "slop", your only option is a big, beefy, single stage press.
Hopefully this cleared up some of the confusion. If you have any further questions, feel free to ask, and I will attempt to answer until you have a comfortable grip on it.
February 4, 2009
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I realized that I forgot to answer one of your questions Wayne.
You are correct in your thinking about the progressive presses and the production increase.
Because you have one plate holding 4-5 cases, you have 4-5 operations occuring at once. After the 1st 4-5 pulls, you are completing 1 round of ammo per pull of the handle. This gives you a substantial increase in production.
With the turret, you are completing only one operation with one pull, not completing one round.
Chris
February 4, 2009
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cdf294 said:
OK- “why can I do 3 rifles, 2 rifles and 1 pistol, or 2 pistols ?” .
What I meant by this is: due to the 7 holes in the press head, you can use 2 sets of 2 dies for realoading rifles and 1 set of 3 dies for a pistol (a total of 7 dies), or 3 sets of 2 dies for rifle calibers (6 dies), or 2 sets of 3 dies for 2 pistols (6 dies). Hopefully this makes more sense to you.
Keep in mind that the RCBS turret has 6 holes in the head- this means you could not use 2 rifle 2 die sets and 1- 3 die pistol set. ( a total of 7 dies)
After re-reading this, there is still potential for confusion in this statement. My mind is pretty foggy today.
Frequently, each rifle caliber comes with 2 dies and each pistol caliber comes with 3 dies.
So… to use the calibers that landpanther needs to reload as an example, one head (on the Redding T7) would be capable of allowing you to reload .223, 30-30, and 380 without needing to remove, change, or adjust any dies. (this assumes that you set up one head with dies for these 3 calibers).
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January 24, 2009
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landpanther1 said:
PS CHARGER FAN… ”22″ TODAY.. A NEW HIGH MATH SCORE FOR ME..
WHOOO
LOL!!
Welp, I've had unexpected things happening today that won't allow me to go lurk around Cabelas.
I'll have to do it on the way home from work either Monday Or Tuesday.
I sure appreciate all the info you guys have posted though, this is great!
January 4, 2009
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CDF294.. CHRIS.. get well soon.. Pneumonia sucks… my wife had walking Pne. years ago and it took her WEEKS to regain her strength… so follow the Dr. orders, take all the meds and REST..
I get everything your saying.. sounds like, if I can just repeat what I think your saying, about runoff.. if I were to look at the cartridge sideways profile.. the bullet is not seated perfectly in alignment with the true center of the cartridge causing it to enter the forcing cone at that angle and thus allowing it to key hole down range.. I get it..
Also it sounds like there is potential for “slop” in both systems.. and also it sounds like your saying.. “you get what you pay for”.. !!
So in any mechanical system the more you use it.. the more it wears.. and so in a cheaper system it may not necessarily be made for the long haul..of course they have to use cheaper components to keep the $$$ down..AND some may not even be made for the short haul Which is what ROBHOF sounded like he was saying !!
I actually was a little leary of the Lee brand for that reason because there is such a big difference in cost compared to others.. there has to be a reason.
I get the whole “# of holes in the plate thing.”. makes sense.. is there a potential to get confused and use the wrong dies once in a while or is there an adjustable stop that you set that will not let you use the wrong dies ??
What is the detents that “lock” or locate the correct position for each station ? Is it a notch that a springed ball bearing drops into.. or what is it exactly.. ?
I live in the mountains of Western North Carolina… there is , to the best of my knowledge no place.. that I can go and look at ALL the different manufactured presses set up side by side , OK.. I haven't really looked at Dicks.. and I'll bet Cabala's in Atlanta would have that.. I need to make some calls around Asheville area to confirm that for sure.. it would be nice to see them all set up and I could make up my mind from first hand observations..
Hey Chris Thanks and again we all hope your on your meds and your on the road to recovery.
Wayne
February 4, 2009
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Thanks Wayne. I've been feeling pretty rough for a little over a week now and energy is at a minimum.
It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of what I was trying to say.
With my setup the way it is, I can tell the dies apart because my rifle dies are black and my pistol dies are silver. When I set up the 44 and 445 dies, I will probably just buy a cheap bag of colored rubberbands and coordinate dies by color.
I keep a reloading log and will note which dies are which color. I figure that should work out fine since I never reload without my log handy to confirm data anyway. This should be fairly easy to keep up with since one should not reload without paying attention to the process.
On the detent, I would suspect a very strong spring and ball mechanism that rides into holes. I think the engagement in the detents feels too solid to be slots. I haven't had it apart yet to know for sure.
There is pretty much a consistent order on press costs. It is a lot like cars though….a more expensive car is not neccessarily a good car, and a cheap car isn't neccessarily a bad car.
A really heavy duty single stage will always be the least expensive option for a high quality press. The turrets are usually next up in cost and then the progressives, although there are some good progressives at very competetive prices. It is least expensive to buy a kit so you have everything you need. If the scale or powder measure doesn't work well, or doesn't meet your expectations, you can always replace it with something better.
I didn't buy a kit but instead pieced everything together. I purchased the equipment I wanted from the start that was within my budget. The other side of the coin was that I could have purchased a very nice Dillon 650 progressive kit for what I spent on mine. Of course, adding to my costs were several items that don't come in a kit, being items that most people don't need anyway.
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January 24, 2009
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I finally got my butt over to Cabelas to have a look-see.
At first, it was looking like they didn't have any kits at all, but then I spied one lonely RCBS kit on a bottom shelf. They want $380 for it...then it looks like I have to buy dies, tumbler, and whatever else. I'm thinking it will be easily $500 before I'm out the door with enough stuff to reload one bag of 100 shells. Probably closer to $600, with my luck. LOL!
They had a Redding T7 there, but it wasn't in a kit. They also didn't have one of those on display, only RCBS, Hornady & Lee. Those last two were both cheezy looking, compared to RCBS & Redding. They have stamped steel bases, instead of stout cast pieces.
The day I decide to buy, I think I'll crack open that RCBS kit & see if any of the other hardware looks cheezy. If so, then I'll probably buy the Redding press & some individual basics, then add other stuff as I go.
I also noticed that they were almost out of gunpowder & really low on bullets & brass. Everybody & their mother are reloading these days.
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