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454 Casull
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BAMAVOL
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June 16, 2010 - 10:10 am
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Did DW ever do the 454 Casull?  If not why not? It was gaining some acceptance. Also what about a new revolver in S&W 500 magnum?

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6point8
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June 16, 2010 - 3:03 pm
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There is alot of info in this forum relating to your questions.

My understanding is that the "super"magnums were created by Elgin Gates some 20 or so years ago and Dan Wesson is the manufacturer that actually put them into production.   And I believe the 500 you mentioned was also outlined at that time but shelved by Smith & Wesson.

When CZ starts back up with revolver production it would be nice to see a 500......But my 445 fills the bill just fine.

 

 

"experience is the hardest teacher, the test comes before the lesson"

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Charger Fan
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June 16, 2010 - 10:27 pm
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Just to wager a guess, I think that because DW pretty much had the market cornered on the .445 SuperMag round in revolvers, they didn't see the need to get into the .454 Casull realm of things. The .454 is a very respectable round, with a broader "fan base" & I'm sure the DW large frame gun could handle it just fine...but the .445 SM is no slouch either.Wink 

The way I understand it, Elgin Gates had his .445 SM round ready to go, back when Dick Casull was still in "wildcat mode" with his...and the particular timeframe when Gates was pushing hard to get his rounds sold to a gun manufacturer & DW just happened to have an ear open to new ideas, was just a deal meant to be. I imagine that if Casull had beaten Gates to the punch, DW would have probably been eager to build a line of guns to use this round & the DW SuperMag would have been a different animal.

So, as things worked out, when someone says ".445 SM" nowdays, usually the gun that comes to mind is the Dan Wesson revolver. When someone says ".454 Casull", any number of makers can come to mind. The .445 SM is DW's baby, plain & simple.Smile

 

On the 500 S&W subject...I'd LOVE to see a DW chambered for that round.Cool

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Tigger
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June 17, 2010 - 9:29 am
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Besides the 445 outruns the 454 at 100 yards anyway. If you take a 300gr bullet started at the same velocity in a 445 and a 454 the 44 bullet is faster and has more energy at 100 yards. The 454 question was posed to DW and this info was posted on the Norwich DW site before it was taken down. I copied it somewhere but can't find it, I'll keep looking. Look at a load manual and compair the figures.

 

The 500 would be cool. Gates had a proyo type I belive called 505 Supermag, and also a 60 caliber. I think the frame could handle the 500 well, but I wonder if the barrel would have enough "meat" left as it has to fit in the shroud?????

 

Gates was ahead of his time.

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
~Thomas Jefferson~

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robhof
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June 17, 2010 - 11:48 am
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I thought that anything over 50 cal was considered a destructive device by ATF and required registration, except shotguns, which is one of the major reasons that guns in general, except for B/p were limited to 1/2".  I have seen a 600 nitro express revolver though, I wouldn't want to fire it, well maybe just once for the bragging rights.  The 445's flatter trajectory is due to it's better ballistic coefficient.  shootingshooting

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El Hombre
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June 17, 2010 - 11:51 am
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From the old Dan Wesson Website:

A DWF revolver in .454 Casull?


     We have no plans to produce a revolver in .454 Casull. All the feedback we get is they are being traded back in as fast as they are being sold, and even some in the firearms media are saying that there is simply too much recoil from the cartridge for the physiology of the human hand and wrist to endure (especially over years of repeated firing). How accurate can you be when you are flinching before each shot because you know its going to kick like a mule and hurt like...well, you get the picture. You might want to check out the article ".454 Casulls: Too Much Power, Too Little Real-World Utility" in the February 2000 issue of Gun Tests.
     Our .445 SuperMag outperforms the .454 Casulls in the following ways:
1. Our .445 SuperMag delivers more accuracy (none of the Casulls have the Dan Wesson system of anchoring the barrel front and rear and keeping it under constant tension to prevent barrel whip during firing);
2. Our .445 SuperMag delivers more down range energy (the same weight bullet in .44 caliber is longer and more slender that a .45 caliber, and therefore has a better ballistic coefficient, and therefore retains more energy. We don't put muzzle velocity (the testosterone factor, or what I refer to as the horse getting out of the gate) at the top of the list of factors that determine whether or not a revolver and cartridge will accomplish the desired results these guns are supposed to be designed for--in the case of big bores, knocking down a big steel ram at 200 meters or a big bull elk at 200 yards (the intelligence factor, or what I refer to as the horse finishing the race--first!);
3. Our .445 SuperMag delivers all that in a revolver that was designed to eliminate and/or isolate the shooter from as much of the negative forces (equal and opposite reactions) of recoil and muzzle climb as is physically possible (check out our compensator system--reduces both negative forces by as much as 61% with absolutely no reduction in velocity or accuracy--all the power and performance with a lot less punishment!), thereby delivering the above-mentioned performance in a revolver that is much more pleasurable to shoot.
     Check out the load data for the .445 SuperMag on our website (300gr @ 1575 ft/sec with CUP @ 44,300 w/ 30gr of H108--that's enough to take down any whitetail, muley, grizzly, bull elk or steel ram @ 200 meters, don't you think?).

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zoommb
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June 17, 2010 - 12:38 pm
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Regarding the S&W 500, have you noticed that it has the same physical characteristics as the Gates 505 SM?

I would love to see a DW in this caliber but the case headstamps would have to say "505 SuperMag", and then a matching large frame gun in ".50DW Magnum" which would use a case which is 1.29" long the same length as the other regular magnums (.357, .41, .44).

Then, of course, baring ATF restrictions, do the same for 60 caliber.

Smile

-Mike

 

 

D2X_0011_x_sm.jpg

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BAMAVOL
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June 18, 2010 - 6:58 am
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I now have a better understanding of the decision to not go 454 Casull. However if you go with the 445 can you buy ammo or do you have to reload? In any case I will stay with the 357 mag. I do not have the budget or need to go to more power.  At some point a long gun makes more sense. However it would be fun to shoot a few rounds.

Thanks for the input.

 

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jaggman
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Pinetor
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June 18, 2010 - 9:12 am
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BAMAVOL said:

I now have a better understanding of the decision to not go 454 Casull. However if you go with the 445 can you buy ammo or do you have to reload? In any case I will stay with the 357 mag. I do not have the budget or need to go to more power.  At some point a long gun makes more sense. However it would be fun to shoot a few rounds.

Thanks for the input.

 


 

^^ This

 

While I think it would be very fun to shoot a big ole hand cannon... I like your thinking.

 

(However, I do want a Razorback in 45)

Soap Box, Ballot Box, Ammo Box

in that order.

4 Monson Model 15's

1 Palmer FB 15

1 Rossi 357 Model 92 (lever)

1 CZ 75B

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nathan475
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June 19, 2010 - 4:10 pm
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I agree with their decision, although in the end it wasn't good for business. I had a Freedom Arms 454 Casull and it was a fantastic gun in fit, finish, and function. The problem was the recoil and the muzzle blast. It was simply too violent of a combination of gun and cartridge to handle. Just the muzzle blast alone hurt my face and sinuses enough to make me flinch. It proved to be too intense to shoot accurately and no fun at all at the range. it was the only gun I've ever owned that kicked enough to tear the webbing between my thumb and index finger. A handgun should not make the shooter bleed in my opinion.

 

I've seen a 22 hornet cleanly take deer with a well placed shot, so I know that you don't need a giant hand cannon to take deer or bigger game like the gun writers would have us believe. And that's why I don't bother with extreme hand cannons. The 445 is the biggest I'm willing to go unless it's in a TC Contender or an Encore format with a well designed muzzle brake installed.

 

On the other hand the 454 is an interesting round to load for because you can compressed huge powder charges of slow burning ball powder like H110 and no matter how much you use, it doesn't seem like you can over load it because the case won't take anymore but it will take the pressure safely. I've also seen some interesting wildcats based on the 454 that Gary Reeder developed in case the 445 brass dried up. By necking it down you increase velocity with lighter bullets and decrease recoil. His 41 caliber cartridge based on the 454 casull is a huge improvement over the original parent cartridge in all areas. Well sort of, because I don't know what the muzzle blast is like. Being an extreme high pressure handgun cartridge that's chambered in a revolver, there's little that  you can do about the concussion wave. Now if you put a 454 Casull in a TC Encore with a good brake, you wind up with a comfortable and accurate hunting tool. I still think that the 445 would still be a better option no matter what the gun because it operates at a lower pressure and has a better section density. Also, the Gary Reeder wilcats based on the 445 have a slightly higher velocity than the 454 based cartridges at much lower pressures. In the end, the real advantage of the Casull from a gun smithing perspective would be the ability to chamber it and it's wildcat variants in a stardard frame revolver since the stretch frame revolvers are in limited supply. On the other hand the stretch frame revolvers are better at handling recoil. That's my 2 cents.

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