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February 18, 2009
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I'm guessing this has been asked before and my search skills might need honing. I searched on "gap" and got no hits, etc.
I see in the files section there's the large frame and supermag user manual. Towards the beginning of the manual I read that 0.002" is used for the 357Maximum and that 0.006" is used for the others. Towards the middle of the manual it say's 0.002" is used for the Supermags.
I recieved today a barrel wrench and gauge that I'd ordered from CZ and in the little plastic bag it came in (labeled "445 Supermag") is a 0.002" gauge.
What gap is best for the 445?
Thanks, Bill
Range Officer
Range Officers
Dans Club
February 9, 2009
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Bill,
I have used the 002 on mine without much problem. Be sure to rotate the cylinder through all 6 to make sure there is not one tighter than all the rest. If you shoot alot before one cleaning I have had my 357 Max get tight to rotate due to build up on the face of the cylinder, I set that one at 003 to get by. I think the 375 Supermag was the one they suggested the 006 setting for.
Hope this helps.
A man cannot have too many SuperMags
February 18, 2009
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Thanks Supermagfan,
I noticed while trying to set the gap, ending up with a light drag on the 0.002" gauge after tightening the barrel nut, that there's some axial play in the cylinder. The detent ball at the rear (under spring tension) pushes the cylinder forward. This causes the cylinder to drag against the barrel. Should I shim the axial play out of the cylinder (at the front) to eliminate or reduce this effect? I didn't measure the amount of axial play but I'd guess it to be 5 thousandths or so. Or am I trying too hard to acheive a minumum gap?
The underside of the barrel shroud doesn't have any slots by the way.
Bill
Range Officer
Range Officers
Dans Club
February 9, 2009
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Bill,
Not sure how to answer that? I usually close the cylinder, insert the gauge and pull the hammer to rotate the cylinder and if I have any trouble rotating it under normal pull then I back it off a little.
SMF
A man cannot have too many SuperMags
February 18, 2009
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I've been reading more about the axial cylinder play and am finding that people refer to this as "endshake", and that shimming is one way to correct this issue I see that Brownells and MidwayUSA sell these shims for S&W but not for DW. I have some shim stock and plan to punch out some shims.
Here is a link to the discussion I found:
http://grantcunningham.com/blo.....5-127.html
I'm not sure how to disassemble my 445. I see the trigger guard assembly latch but when depressing it I still could not pull the assembly from the frame. Do I need to press out the pin that the hammer pivots on (it looks like the hammer pivots on the pin anyway)?
Thanks, Bill
Range Officer
Range Officers
Dans Club
February 9, 2009
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Bill,
You are past me now. I have not disassembled a revolver before. Not to say it will never happen because I do wish to change a cylinder on one. Sorry to say I am at the end of road helping on this.
I have not noticed much of the end shake as it is called sometime on anything but my one Smith, but it has been shot alot.
SMF
A man cannot have too many SuperMags
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January 24, 2009
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BuffaloBill said:
I'm not sure how to disassemble my 445. I see the trigger guard assembly latch but when depressing it I still could not pull the assembly from the frame. Do I need to press out the pin that the hammer pivots on (it looks like the hammer pivots on the pin anyway)?
Thanks, Bill
To remove the cylinder, start by removing the grip (allen screw in the bottom), then remove the two small allens on the side plate (one by the hammer, one hidden by the grip). Lift the rear of the side plate up, pivoting the end above the trigger a little, then pull rearward.
There's a half-moon C-shaped piece of round metal…like a fat piece of wire, holding the rear part of the crane into the frame. Remove that with needlenose, or a magnet…then slide the crane forward, bringing the cylinder with it.
That't the first I've read about “endshake”, but I can see how it would affect the operation of a revolver. I would imagine that a gun would have to have a BUNCH of ammo run through it for that to happen…especially a DW, these things have pretty stout frames.
*EDIT* I almost forgot about this disassembly article, this may help more than my babble. It's for a Model 15, but your gun should be basically the same, I think.
https://www.danwessonforum.com/wp-content/uploads/DW%20Disassembly.PDF
February 2, 2009
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The large/supermags have no side plate; the rear allen screw is actually a mainspring capture tool. After removing the grip screw and grip; remove the rear allen screw from side of frame and insert into grip screw hole on tang. Cock the hammer back and lightly tighten the allen screw to capture the mainspring. You can tap out the hammer retaining spring now or just remove the trigger group through the bottom by pushing open the rear retaining latch and while pushing forward with the group lightly, carefully pull the trigger group out. Once the trigger group is removed you can acess the retaining clip for the crane and remove with a clip tool or carefully with jeweler's screwdriver. To reassemble; be sure the transfer bar(also called the connector in the DW exploded diagram) is in front of the hammer, as it wants to slide behind the trigger; I used a jewler driver to guide the bar in front of the hammer while sliding the group back together. Good luck, it took a long conversation with a DW smith to help me the 1st time I took it apart. The good news is it's much easier the 2nd time.
April 25, 2008
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I believe that is normal for the Dan Wessons to have that front-to-back cylinder movement and it should not be shimmed out. I check my barrel/cylinder gap with the cylinder pressed forward against the spring pressure. For the life of my, I can't remember WHY it was designed that way.
The Savantist
February 18, 2009
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Thanks for the info but this 445 doesn't have a removable sideplate like the 357 frames.
This might get a little long but please bear with me....maybe grab a soda or something...
I did figure something out I think. A rookie mistake I think... The barrel wasn't tightened down very much when I felt the endshake. Actually when I snug the barrel nut good and tight the barrel shroud pushed the crane assembly (I think I'm using the correct term) rearward and that endshake is gone. In fact, even with the barrel/cylinder gap set wide, the cylinder takes too much effort to rotate past a couple spots. I removed the barrel shroud & barrel and checked the front of the frame and the rear of the barrel shroud (where the surfaces mate) for burrs or contamination. I used a fine ceramic stone to polish these mating surfaces a little bit and I didn't really find anything that stood above the main surface. I reassembled it and still have binding over abut 1/3 of a revolution when the barrel nut is tight. This is a little puzzling to me since being a used gun I'd think if anything it'd be loosened up rather than too tight. I checked and double checked the cleanliness between the rear of the cyinder and the star shaped ejector. The front of the cylinder bearing seems to nicley mate against the shoulder in the crane. Since the binding happens only for a certain part of a revolution I suspected the rear face of the star shaped ejector piece wasn't the same height all the way around. I removed the ejector, chucked it in the lathe, and used a dial indicator to check the "height" of each of the 6 dogs (is that the correct term?). I found that one of them was a couple thousanths higher than the others. If I measure (with the indicator) on the round bearing surface (measuring at a radius of about 1/8" from the center) I get a little more than a thousandths runout. The surface in the frame where the ejector recoils against looks ok.
So far I've polished the rear bearing surface of the ejector, spinning it in the lathe using 2000 grit wet-dry paper heald between the ejector and a squarely faced off piece of bar stock held in the tail stock chuck. I was attempting to remove only the "high" spot and did accomplish that to some degree. I didn't want to over do it as you really can't back up! I reassembled things and still have binding. I used a black marker to color the rear of the ejector and worked the cylinder through a couple revolutions, using my fingers to help rotate it. I can see from where the marker was worn off that those areas are high. Below is a picture but it might be hard to see this detail.
Am I missing something? When I furst got the gun and removed the barrel nut it wasn't very tight...hmmmmm.......there was a reason for that I guess!
I'm not too worried, I can see that removing a couple of thousandths would fix the binding but I wanted to run this past you all and think about it some more before I move on.
Thanks both for listening and in advance for any advice you've got.
Bill
February 18, 2009
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Gosh, it took me so long to compose my last post that two of you offered great information before I got it sent.
Thanks robhof for the great verbal disassembly instructions. Even though the endshake I thought I had wasn't real, I'll still want to take it apart for cleaning, etc.
IHMSA80x80,
I got out of the safe my blued 357 DW and found it to have as you described a small amount of endshake also. And it's good to know this is normal. Wouldn't you think though than upon firing that the cylinder would be gripped by the expanding case and pressed rearward against the frame (compressing the little spring force of the detent ball)? If it did then the cylinder gap would become that much wider. Maybe I'm not right about that and maybe the case head contacts the frame without moving the cylinder rearward. What do you think? I'm sure I've shot Dan Wessons far fewer times than you and many of the others here, so I'm no expert!
I feel like I'm overlooking somethng now that the cylinder is actually binding rather than being too loose (I tried to explain in my last post).
Bill
February 2, 2009
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Your barrel is probably turning when you tighten the shroud nut; have that problem with my 10" barrel and one of my 8" sets. You place the feeler gauge in the slot and tighten until light resistance is felt and cycle through all cylinders to check for high spots/set on the highest cylinder, open the cylinder and hold base of barrel with one hand and tighten carefully with the other to prevent barrel movement.
February 18, 2009
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I wanted to update you on what I did. Since the lack of clearance seemed to be only for part of a revolution I fugured I should correct that. I chucked the extractor in the drill press and pressed lightly against the 2000grit wet-dry paper on the table. I slid the paper back and forth until I didn't feel much grabbiness. Not sure what words to use but you could feel the high spot grabbing the paper unevenly as it spun. I reassembled the DW and now with the barrel tightened the cyllinder spins freely. I then went on to try and acheive a 2 thousandths barrel-cylinder gap. The gap feels nice and consistent on all the chambers. If I press the cylder forward I get a light drag on the .002" guage and when I pull it to the rear I get a similar drag on the .003" guage.
Do you think this difference of .001" will be enough to prevent binding once it's shot a few times and warms up?
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January 24, 2009
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Sorry about my attempted help ealier, I guess that shows exactly how many large frame DW's I have, huh?
LOL!
February 18, 2009
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Charger Fan,
I can picture the barrel turning like you're talking about. That's something I'll have to be aware of when setting gaps. In this instance that wasn't the case but it's good information for me to keep in mind. I woke up this morning thinking about what I'd done to releive the binding and began to worry that I might not have enough clearance for the case rim...well I got out the feeler guages again and measured the clearance to be .063". Checking a Hornady reloading manual for the rim thickness I see it's spec'd at .060"....phew!
I don't have any 44Special, Mag, or 445 cases to cycle through the beast but from the measurement I'm thinking it'll be OK. I've got some 445 Starline brass on order from MidwayUSA but they're out of stock. It is due in near the end of the month if I remember correctly.
February 2, 2009
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Alot of the early DW's had a .001 to .0025 acceptable difference on the cylinder face due to hardening the cylinder after it was machined. This was easier on the cutting tools, but made for small variances after treating. The Norwich made cylinders were finish cut after hardening for a truer cylinder face and to reduce discards from an unacceptable face difference. Your .001 difference is well within the accepted range. With the .002 gap, I've fired boxes of cast bullets with only mild dragging after many rounds. I've never had a problem with jacketed bullets. The cast buildup is composed of lube and carbon mix.
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