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March 15, 2011
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All:
Here are pictures of the candidate gun and the candidate cylinder. I went to the Dulles Expo Int'l Gun Show in Chantilly, VA a few days ago. I wasn't anticipating getting anything more than a few boxes of ammo and some magazines for my Model 639 until I spied this beauty on a vendor's table. It looks like the cylinder assembly for a model 14 or 15. I did an eyeball and on the fat chance it fit the 714, I bought it for a lot less than one would pay for from CZ DW. Needless to say, it was complete. I did a side by side comparo with the 714 and indeed it looks like it may work but I will let a competent 'smith do the fitting if it needs to.
Someone made the comment that the .357" size of the barrel may pose problems if I used 9mm Lugar ammo in the rechamber. I did a fair amount of research on similar conversions. There was only one detractor: a fellow on a law enforcement website did such a conversion to a Smith J-frame snubbie. He said it wasn't accurate compared to his regular 38 special +P version. Other sites stated that their conversions were 'crazy accurate' or something to that effect. In any event, this project promises to be an educational experience. If successful, I will add a new caliber to the stable without having to break the budget on doing so, while simultaneously opening up my "ammo bunker" to perhaps the world's most produced centerfire round. Staty tuned. DW41F.
March 15, 2011
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Well well well! After I made the earlier post regarding my gun show cylinder find, I had to check it out and see if at least it would fit and work. So far, it does! Earlier today, I printed some schematics on the medium frame DW's to get an idea of what to expect. That and some tools later, with 5 minutes worth of exchanging parts and "voila!" Change of the 714 into a "Palomino" gun. My plan is to have the carbon steel cylinder sent off to TK Arms to have the cylinder rechambered and "moonclipped" to accept the 9mm Lugar cartridge. A few years ago, Ruger came out with a six-shot 9mm revolver to canvass the European llaw enforcement market. I'm hoping that TK can use the Ruger Speed Six 9mm moon clips, since they are basically off-the-shelf components. Machining the cylinder to accept custom moon clips will be an expensive proposition. Time will tell. DW41F
November 23, 2011
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The way things are falling into place for you, it looks like this was meant to be. R S 
Remembering Sketter Skelton
March 15, 2011
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Thanks, Ron:
Skeeter was one of my all time favorite gunwriters. When I grow up, I wanna be just like him. :^).
BTW, I like your avatar. I was former tanker in the Guard. PL, XO, BMO, and S1. Sometimes I miss that. DW41F (DW9mmF?).
January 22, 2008
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Sounds like a fun project. Keep us posted on your progress!
Range Officer
Range Officers
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March 27, 2009
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Keep us posted!
Nice Gun show score!
November 23, 2011
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danwesson41fan states BTW, I like your avatar.
Thanks T C 1969 to 1972 in 551's "First to fire, First to run" R S
March 15, 2011
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Did a range check today on the 714 with the replacement blued steel cylinder assembly. My main concern was accuracy and functionality of the combination before investing the bigger dollars to make the changeover to 9 mil happen. This was a make-or-break moment. If something was wrong, I would abort the project and count my $50 dollars spend on the new cylinder as a learning lesson. But if it turns out the accuracy is reasonable enough to proceed with the change, I will do it. Here is a picture of five rounds of 125 grain Magtech 38 Special FN pumped through the "palomino gun:"
It turns out the group using a two handed hold at around 6 yards was fine. I know if I had "benched' the 714, I would have tighter groups. So, a little over an inch in a clustered grouping using a two hand hold was accurate enough for me. The verdict? Proceed with the 9mm Dan Wesson conversion. Stay tuned.
Range Officer
Range Officers
Dans Club
March 27, 2009
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Interesting it indexed properly! Waiting to hear more!
Range Officer
Range Officers
Dans Club
February 28, 2009
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So, are you going to have the cylinder holes sleeved to reduce them to 9mm?
-Mike
February 4, 2012
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According to SAAMI, case diameter at the case mouth for 357 is .379" and for 9MM is .3800" Chambers at the same point are .3800" for 357 and 3810" for 9MM. Thus it seems that the cylinder will need to be opened slightly, not sleeved down. IIRC, the 9MM uses thicker brass which accounts for the difference as it uses a .002 smaller diameter bullet.
A couple comments on the conversion on general- You may find it necessary to do some timing work. Check that carefully as many times working the action quickly (normal-speed DA)will allow a badly-timed cylinder to lock through inertia, making you think all is fine when it isn't. From what I've been told, factory made convertibles were timed through parts-swapping- when they got two cylinders to match well enough they then final-fitted the pawl. There's a post about checking cylinder timing here: https://www.danwessonforum.com/forum/revolvers/revolver-checkout-how-to-tell-if-a-particular-specimen-is-any-good/
Also, if the outer diameter of the star doesn't intrude on the cartridge base area all this will need is lathe-work; cheap and easy. Maybe the chambering reamer also cuts this area; I do not know. It may need end-milling separately. From a machining standpoint none of this is a complicated set-up. My main concern would be that to allow for the moon clips the ejector may end up too thin after milling, but if it caught enough of the clip it would actually be stressed less than with individual cartridges. I seem to recall one manufacturer used spring-steel wire to engage the rim of the auto cartridges if they were loaded individually- maybe OK on the range but I wouldn't trust it on the street.
I have fitted exactly one cylinder for a convertible and it was on a cheap 22 Mag single-action where I added a 22LR wheel to the mix. I had to rework the star slightly and luckily it was soft enough so that I could use my needle files. What that said for longevity worried me but after 200 rounds nothing appeared to be wearing and the owner never complained so I guess it was hard enough for his use. My eyes were younger then- I'd need a 10X eye loupe to pull that off these days!
I like the idea of this conversion and eagerly await every update. Even if accuracy was only fair with the 9MM, the cheap ammo will let you shoot more for less money and that is always a good thing!
Phil
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November 17, 2008
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I have a question because I am clueless about conversions.
I realise the moon clip will hold the 9mm just like a rimmed cartridge but what happens when the bullet hits the cylinder throat. I guess it is similar to shooting a 38 in a 357 but with a much longer jump. Does this cause a issue or do you modify the throat to prevent shaving the jacket or lead, or is it not a problem. I always assumed that conversion cylinders head-spaced on the rim like an auto. If I asked a dumb question well it won't be the first or last time. Thanks in advance.
LB
Wisdom is merely the realization of how little one knows, therefore I am wise.
November 23, 2011
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lbruce Dumb Question? Not likely. Your question focus on one of the main concerns with this type of set up. For a revolver to shoot well the closer the bullet is to the barrel and the rifling the better. In the case of the 9 mm. conversion and my 40 S&W, 10mm, and 40 Mag. The moon clip is necessary to allow for case extraction. The fact that I will be using a 360 Dan Wesson cylinder bored out to 40 cal. I expect the 40 Mag to be accurate and the 40 S&W, 10 mm. to be plinking accurate at best. The poorly supported bullet that travels in the cylinder before hitting the throat and then the barrel are likely to be poorly aligned. Time will tell. R S
March 15, 2011
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I've heard different bore differences in which 9mm was actually SMALLER than the .357" bore. 0.355" was more like it. Theories abound in which some predict that the 9mm will go "bouncing down the cylinder and barrel" of rechambered 357 magnum revolver. Don't forget that there are successful designs that incorporate both types of cartridges: the Ruger Blackhawk Convertible comes to mind. Another is the Manurhin MR 73. Finally, the "grand-daddy" of all 9mm Parabellum revolvers is the IMI M1917 (yes, that's right, sort of named after our own moon-clipped military versions of the New Service and Hand Ejector beauties). Apparently, the Israelis initial produced a K-frame type revolver chambered in 38 Special but logistical demands (which, BTW, is the point of this project) required that those same guns be chambered for the more readily available 9mm Parabellum round. After all, Israel is collocated in an area close in scope to every potential 9mm ammo stocks available (not to mention the fact that by then, Israel was employing the famous Uzi 9mm submachinegun into their armed forces).
From an economic, historical, and practical prospective, this is why I engaged this project. It is very interesting just by the nature of discussion and may provide even more reasons for others to take on a like minded conversion.
DW41F.
March 15, 2011
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CarpenterMan said:
>>snip
There's a post about checking cylinder timing here: https://www.danwessonforum.com/forum/revolvers/revolver-checkout-how-to-tell-if-a-particular-specimen-is-any-good/
Also, if the outer diameter of the star doesn't intrude on the cartridge base area all this will need is lathe-work; cheap and easy. Maybe the chambering reamer also cuts this area; I do not know. It may need end-milling separately. From a machining standpoint none of this is a complicated set-up. My main concern would be that to allow for the moon clips the ejector may end up too thin after milling, but if it caught enough of the clip it would actually be stressed less than with individual cartridges. I seem to recall one manufacturer used spring-steel wire to engage the rim of the auto cartridges if they were loaded individually- maybe OK on the range but I wouldn't trust it on the street.
Thanks for that (although I didn't read these directions). What I did was based on common sense. I assumed that a badly timed gun would mean that at least, lead would be spitting out the sides due to shaving. At the worst, not firing (due to the firing pin missing the primer or having the bullet fire directly into the frame 
!
There was some expected side-to-side play (which I have experienced with other revolvers except for the "bank lock up" mechanism of the Colts). I did the cylinder timing thing by doing exactly what the directions said: I indexed each one of the chambers and looked down the EMPTY barrel to determine if there was good alignment. Check on all six! Hence, you can see the fruits of this effort with the shooting of the Magtech ammo above. BTW, thinking about it, I do not know when the cylinder was made nor the 714, but combining two DW parts from different types and unknown manufacturing times and lots and having the new combination shoot reasonably well (that is, accurate), this is a testament to the consistent quality and workmanship made by this company and should give you even more warm fuzzies about the efforts from the folks at the Monson, Palmer, and Norwich plants. FWIW. DW41F.
March 15, 2011
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zoommb said:
So, are you going to have the cylinder holes sleeved to reduce them to 9mm?
-Mike
Hi Mike:
No. I believe TK Custom Guns chambers the cylinder to accept a 9mm headspace at the case mouth and no sleeving.
DW41F.
March 15, 2011
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I removed the blued cylinder assembly and replaced it with the 714's original stainless six-pipe in anticipation of sending it out to TK Custom for "la nueve conversion' ".
While doing so, I did see some surface rust on a few of the components inside the lockwork so I sprayed it down with TEF-LUBE lubricant. Those of you who have pet DWs might want to check on their respective lockworks and ensure these old girls get their fair share of maintenance.
I'm likely shipping the cylinder out this week. Stay tuned. DW41F.
March 15, 2011
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Hello to all:
Today, I boxed up the blued cylinder and will be sending it tomorrow. In the meantime, some Ruger Speed Six 9mm half moon clips showed up at my door. I had the hunch that these gun companies had some collusion between each other when it came to dimensions and specifications of their respective competing revolvers. We all know that a Smith K-frame speed loader will fit a Ruger x-Six series and likely a Dan Wesson medium frame. I had some discussions with Tom at TK Custom and he wasn't sure. I had to vet these hunches and here is what I found:
At this point, I am trying the 9mm half moon clip fit with rounds. It looks like it will work with Ruger 1/2 mooners. The trouble is that there might be some removal issues as there is some interference with the cylinder stop. Using these particular half moon clips, one will have to drop one in, rotate the cylinder, allow the 1/2 clip to drop past the recoil plate, and load the other. With a full moon "star" type clip, this shouldn't be a problem. However, it looks like Ruger Speed Six clips will work with this. Tomorrow, I ship out the blued cylinder to TK. In the meantime, stay tuned! DW41F.
March 15, 2011
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Sent it off priority mail to TK Custom. It should arrive Monday and I expect it to be back by Friday. We'll see. DW41F.
March 15, 2011
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TK Customs got my package yesterday. He should be getting to it by week's end. According to Tom, he said that the DW cylinder can use K-frame clips (as I suspected). Stay tuned! DW41F.
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