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January 12, 2012
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Since my entry into the DW Forum excitement about questions unresolved about the beginning of the 11 started getting some answers.
One example is the production time frame of the Model 11. Printed sources I've had list basically one-year that the 11 was manufactured and that was 1970 yet I had a gun article on the 11 written in March 1973 about the virtues of the DW Fixed Sight 357 with an interchangeable barrel. While going over this great website set up by some very smart fellas I came across an old 1975 DW Catalog and the 11 is right in there and apparently still in production.
My sincere desire to learn more of the .38 NYPD Model 11 has not been realized yet but being in this fine forum here will one day someone may stumble across my question and fill me up to the brim with NYPD Model 11 data.
Another example is, and I'm trying to dig it up where I found it, that the High Standard Company was contracted by Mr. Dan to build the first models (11 & 12) for him till he could get his Factory up and running. According to one of the respected members here, with a live body to back up his facts, stated that High Standard was NEVER in the picture until Mr. Dan was contracted by them to build the DW 14 & 15 with High Standard markings. I believe that the High Standard factor of the early 11 & 12 has been floated out there in print and I'm so glad to have been enlightened on that point. Stuff like that is so important in keeping the historical record straight. Thanks again members for allowing me to be here!
David
P.S. Will be sending those pics in of my DW's very soon.
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January 24, 2009
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Due to the BATF having (hoarding) all the serial number info on anything pre-Norwich, definite manufacture dates will probably always be a little fuzzy. On some of the less popular models, it will be a lot fuzzy. Steve's excellent work with the DWF Registry is doing a good job at clearing away the fuzz, but it will still take time.
I am fairly certain that the production period for the 11 & 12 was mostly (if not all) during 1970, maybe a couple months into 1971. The model 14 replaced the 11 and a little later, came the 14-1. These were all Porkchop guns. Your March '73 article was probably talking about the 14-1, since that's about the time that model came along.
I think I know the 1975 Catalog you're talking about…it shows an 11 & 12, but also shows a 14 & 15, plus three examples of engraved 15's? There's a scan of it at the DWCA site, however there's not a printing date on it, which makes me suspect that it's older than '75. It's my opinion that the 11 & 12 in that catalog were probably leftover inventory that they were trying to get sold…although the retail prices don't reflect a "sale", I bet that the dealer's cost did. Like I say, that's merely my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.
The High Standard connection is talked about HERE , where we all learned a whole lot, myself included. John Stimson posted a link in there with manufacture dates. On Pg 14 in that link, it shows the earliest MK II & III's began in 5/73. The reoccuring story about HS making the 11 & 12 DW's is one that I'm fairly certain is false. If it's been floated out there in print, I hope to see it one day. Of course, not everything in print is an absolute fact.
A couple of the '69 & '70 magazines I've got, contain small errors in the articles, possibly because of info highlights hastily scribbled down in the author's note pad? Who knows.
January 12, 2012
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Hello Charger Fan!
Thanks for the response to my question on the Model 11. I rechecked my the date on the magazine article and it appears that I was a year off. Instead of March 1973 it is dated March 1972 and it is posted on this site on the Karl Lewis side. The two pictures of the DW in the article appear, to my aging eyes, a Model 11. The article by a Mr. John Miles is titled, "Wesson D-11 .357 Magnum Proves Rugged Handgun" and if my assumption is correct this seems to point to the Model 11 as "still" available in March 1972.
I recently read a paperback non-fiction by James Wagner with the title of, "My Life In The NYPD" printed in early 2000. In reading Mr. Wagners biography of his cop career, which spanded between the years of 1969 and 1992, he mentions the approved NYPD Service Revolvers. On page 160 (paperback) he lists the NYPD "approved" .38 Service Revolvers for the year of 1972;
1-Smith & Wesson Model 10 (4"HB, Blue Steel)
2-Colt Metropolitan MK III (4" HB, Blue Steel)
3-Dan Wesson (4"Barrel, Blue Steel)
The Dan Wesson Model number is not mentioned by Mr. Wagner but New York's Vivas & Son Gun Store (Bob) has a collection of NYPD service revolvers and a ton of info on the same. He (Bob Vivas) list the Dan Wesson Model 11 (Fixed BBL.) in his inventory on this PD's service revolvers. Mr. Massad Ayoob does the same in a 1990 Handguns article entitled; "NYPD Gunfights Prove: Use The Front Sight" in which he lists the Dan Wesson connection. He (Ayoob) states; "The guns are primarily S&W Model 10, Ruger Police Service-Six and a tiny handful of Dan Wessons (Model 11) that left the Dan Wesson Factory with 1-Way locking lugs on their shrouded barrels to expressly earn NYPD approval."
Charger Fan, all of the above took place in the early 70's. It leads me to think that (perhaps) the 11 got built longer than 1-year. If not, Dan Wesson kept plenty 11's on inventory and sold them to NYPD with their special features (.38 Spl., Fixed BBL.) after 71. Matter of fact sir a retired NYPD buddy told me that he saw the .38 Model 11 on display at Rodmans Outdoor Range (where NYPD cops qualify) in the early 1980's. There were "still" some (NYPD Model 11) ready for purchase and duty use in the early 1980's according to him. He never saw one on a cops hip till he saw mine on my hip here in Columbus. He packed the Metropolitan MK III like I do except I sneak that 11 in once in a while.
Now for the initial High Standard connection on Mr. Dan's first 11's and 12's that has been in print and "hopefully" I will locate the source(s) in that hoarders room in my house that carries gun stuff. I will immediately share this on locating it. Because it is there! Thanks Charger Fan for your devotion to the Dan Wesson Six-Gun and especially this website. Thanks for helping to keep a great six-shooter up and running through this fine website you and others have worked so hard on. Have lurked the forum here a long time and so thankful to be here. I can't express these sentiments enough sir!
Ever respectfully;
David
*Edit by CF*
David, in an effort to keep the thread subject in one spot, please do not start a new thread with a post that belongs in an already existing thread. It makes it too hard to chase down which thought belongs to which thread originally.
I will paste your other post here, to help keep the thread in order;
There are other sources that detail this same story with the same ending. It would be interesting to hear first-hand about this so we could all be on the same sheet concerning this. Thanks again members!
David
May 17, 2010
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I read the entire thread on the DW- HS history... but now I am still confused. John Stinston says there are no records from HS to back up HS ever making early DW's and the "dana" says that Mr. Wesson "SAID" that HS made the early DW's.
As far as I can tell the jury is still out... did HS make early DW's? Could it be that HS made proto-types of the DW? versus making serial numberd guns? Thus both are true...? We need that Ithaca guy to possibly enlighten us!
Soap Box, Ballot Box, Ammo Box
in that order.
4 Monson Model 15's
1 Palmer FB 15
1 Rossi 357 Model 92 (lever)
1 CZ 75B
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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Here's my take on all of this:
"I'm confused, you're confused, we're confused"!
John Stimson has a lot of great High Standard info, we have some obscure DW info that we hope/think might be accurate, All of the DW info has disappeared into the black hole of ownership changes and the BATF, and none of that is ever coming back to the real world.
The Golden Age of Dan Wesson firearms was the 70's. We have seen that a lot of wild and wacky stuff happened back then, and record keeping was not the most important thing happening. Ownership changes and lost records make this much harder.
Every time I think I know a FACT about Dan Wesson history, someone proves to me that I don't.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
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January 24, 2009
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David, now I see the March 1972 article you were talking about. I had forgotten about that one. I'm posting a link to it HERE for posterity. You're right, it does appear that the D11 was still available at that time…although I'm still going by my assumption that DW had some extra inventory for a few months. Who knows though, I could be entirely wrong there.
Regarding the NYPD Model 11's being sold many years after 1970, I have no logical explanation for that, I'm out of guesses.
Although, I will say that some groups of unfired forty year old guns are still out there. I bought a group of five (of which four were unfired), from a seller in 2009. I'm sure that finding a cache like that is uncommon, so I'm not about to say that gun shops all over the country make a habit if sitting on their inventory for decades at a time.
As to the pre-1973 HS-DW connection, I concede that it's a possibility. Anything's possible. However, considering that the source of that info LINK HERE is from a blog (albeit an overall nicely written one), I am leery to use it as fact. Too many blogs are comprised from doing a "cut & paste" from Wikipedia or other online posts. Thanks for steering me to where you found that, BTW. Now post-1973 HS involvement with DW I have no problem with. The MK II & III are exactly like the Model 14-1 & 15-1 DW's, only with HS markings on the exterior. I own examples of each & can attest to that.
Hopefully someone like Seth Wesson, or another person who had a finger on the pulse of the company in the early days, will pop in here one day & feed us all a huge helping of facts. We could all use it.
Steve, you're right. With the DW info being lost in the black hole, I'm afraid that much of our fact checking is simply left to speculation. Having bits & pieces of fact don't often do much to put the whole picture together.
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January 24, 2009
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BTW David, what is the serial number on your Model 11? I don't need the full number, an "x" or two at the end will satisfy my curiosity. So far, the highest Model 11 s/n I have is from a GB auction…#7023.
There's a good chance that they go into the 8's, since the Model 12 does, but this one is the highest I have come across thus far for the 11.
January 12, 2012
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Charger Fan said:
BTW David, what is the serial number on your Model 11? I don't need the full number, an "x" or two at the end will satisfy my curiosity. So far, the highest Model 11 s/n I have is from a GB auction…#7023.
There's a good chance that they go into the 8's, since the Model 12 does, but this one is the highest I have come across thus far for the 11.
Hello Charger Fan!
I'm afraid I already posted the complete serial number of my Model 11 already. I hope I didn't violate any protocol by doing this sir. The serial number is 1131. Purchased in November 1997 from a pawnshop here in Columbus for $185.50.
I'm brand new Charger Fan here and as time goes by I will become more acquainted with the do's and don't on this forum. I can tell that good manners is "always" appreciated and that will always be in any posts I send.
Thanks again for allowing an old po-po into this forum. For all of his (my) short-comings lack of appreciation is NOT among them. You probably already ascertained that I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer with computer skills so I beg your patience. Thanks again sir for taking the time to respond to my history questions about DW firearms!
David
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January 24, 2009
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David Abney said:
Hello Charger Fan!
I'm afraid I already posted the complete serial number of my Model 11 already. I hope I didn't violate any protocol by doing this sir. The serial number is 1131. Purchased in November 1997 from a pawnshop here in Columbus for $185.50.
If my brain wasn't already half asleep last night, I would have looked at your other posts before I asked that...my bad.
You're fine with posting the complete number, I just said that because some folks aren't comfortable with posting the complete number on an open forum. So yours is actually a fairly low number, and one that I would definitely say was built in 1970 (now I recall saying this before in your first post or two ). Great price, BTW!
I (we all) appreciate good manners here on the DWF, yours included. I hope I didn't come across too stern in my edit above, I just wanted to bring it to your attention as a (hopefully) helpful nudge.
BTW, I had to edit the "high number" in my previous post this morning. I had another high number out of place in my notes...one of these days I'll get organized.
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Dans Club
March 27, 2009
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Hate to do it!
though someone had too!
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