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December 3, 2015
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OK, I will stick my neck out here. I have my flame suit at the ready for replies.
On the bores of Colt Pythons and Dan Wesson revolvers. Seems it is no hard task to find talk of them using "Tapered Bores". Search as I may, I can find no real evidence that either manufacturer did this. I have seen reference to Colt using a ball of precision dimensions forced through the barrel to smooth out tool marks on the lands. Sometimes referred to as Colt's "silver ball treatment" or "ballizing". Well this certainly would go against the theory of a tapered bore. If the ball was a precise fit at the breech end of the barrel it would not be able to be forced completely through the barrel and exit the muzzle end of a tapered bore. This ball would have to be made of something much harder than the lands. Something like lead or other soft metal would not accomplish it's intended purpose. It would need to be Too hard I would imagine to be capable of deforming as it proceeded down a tapered bore.
As far as Dan Wesson using a tapered bore, again I find no solid evidence or documentation of the technique. Seems like it would be a very expensive procedure to tool up for and perform. I can comprehend a manufacturer using different rates of twist, more or less lands and grooves and even tightening the bore a tiny bit. i.e. using a .356 bore as opposed to .357. However, until I see some solid credible information on the "tapered bore" in Pythons and Dan Wessons I remain a skeptic.
Now climbing into my flame suit.
Dans Club
March 2, 2008
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I'm pretty sure you will not need a "flame suit", but I must confess that:
1) I'm not very smart
2) I don't understand "tapered bores"
3) I don't remember seeing a Dan Wesson reference to "tapered bores"
BUT, I'm willing ( marginally able?) to learn, so please teach.
I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman "Were is the Self Help Section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.
George Carlin
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February 22, 2009
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I slug all my bores. I don't have a Python but can state empirically, DWs (at least 26 of them) don't have a tapered bore. No flame suit needed.
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
December 3, 2015
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rwsem said
I slug all my bores. I don't have a Python but can state empirically, DWs (at least 26 of them) don't have a tapered bore. No flame suit needed.
Phew! Was getting warm inside all that Nomex.
I was going to ask if anyone has ever slugged their DW bore. I would be curious to know a couple of things.
Do you recall how consistent the bores were? If they vary what was the range? I did read a post on another forum where someone claimed to have slugged a ton of .357 bores. Something to do with his job as an armorer. He said he found them anywhere from .355 to .358. That is 9mm range to oversize .357. I have also read that a good deal of the Python owners barrels were at .356. This and the 1:14 twist rate are a couple of the reasons they claim improved accuracy. Key to what I say above is the fact that I read it on-line and also the word "Claim".
What did you find on the Dan Wesson's?
Edit: What brought this all up is I have a 4 inch DW barrel. ( Thank you Ole Dog )) I want to ask Erik at EWK if he can cut it down to 3.5 inches to use in my internal nut Pork Chop shroud for use on a High Standard MK111. If the DW barrel did in fact have a tapered bore it would probably effect which end I asked him to take the .25 inch off from.
March 25, 2008
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Just to add a note there was at one time talk of the throat of the barrel being taylor throated to improve the transition from cylinder to barrel. I'm not sure how or when it started but it was to improve accuracy and overall ballistics. Others may clear this up!
December 3, 2015
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pops2 said
Just to add a note there was at one time talk of the throat of the barrel being taylor throated to improve the transition from cylinder to barrel. I'm not sure how or when it started but it was to improve accuracy and overall ballistics. Others may clear this up!
mmmmmmm, throat? or the forcing cone. The way I look at the sequence of events the casing sits in the bore of the cylinder or what could be called the "charge hole". At the casing mouth the cylinder throat begins. This is slightly smaller than the charge hole but is desired to be about .001" larger than the barrel bore. With the .357 cartridge the projectile or "bullet" will extend from the case mouth into the throat of the cylinder. Next will be the forcing cone of the barrel. An 11 degree forcing cone is typical.
Just realized what you meant by "Taylor throating". That happens after the forcing cone. Removing a small bit of rifling and adding a chamfer. The theory being that this would aid the smooth transition of the projectile to the rifling. Yes, that would be another reason to remove material from the muzzle end rather than the forcing cone end.
I have an e-mail out to Eric. I may just purchase one of his barrels as I like the idea of the 1:12 twist rate. Probably cost almost as much to have my 4" modified. Plus this way I have a 4 inch to use should the need arises.
February 25, 2016
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rwsem said
I slug all my bores. I don't have a Python but can state empirically, DWs (at least 26 of them) don't have a tapered bore. No flame suit needed.
You have 26 DWs!!?? I'm struggling to acquire a second. Probably because I don't like online purchasing.
December 3, 2015
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SnakeInMyBoot said
rwsem said
I slug all my bores. I don't have a Python but can state empirically, DWs (at least 26 of them) don't have a tapered bore. No flame suit needed.
You have 26 DWs!!?? I'm struggling to acquire a second. Probably because I don't like online purchasing.
LOL, I was fortunate to get a visit with Ron while in Florida this winter. I lost count on the Dan Wessons. Not to mention the High Standards and other rather exotic iron.
December 3, 2015
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You know, all this barrel talk brings to mind muzzle crowning. Whats the story with this and DW?
There are sources that place equal importance on the forcing cone and crown in regards to obtaining optimal accuracy.
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February 22, 2009
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Lee- the bores were always pretty consistent at .358" but the throats range from .356(+) to .358(-) on the .357s. You actually want the throats at .359" or .360". The bullet should be squeezed from cylinder to throat to forcing cone to bore for best accuracy. Eric will take the .5" from the muzzle end most likely, leaving the forcing cone alone. Unless you want to pay for extra machining processes. BTW, I'm the other Ron that you haven't met....
Matt- I have 26 records of different Dans that I've measured....
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
December 3, 2015
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rwsem said
Lee- the bores were always pretty consistent at .358" but the throats range from .356(+) to .358(-) on the .357s. You actually want the throats at .359" or .360". The bullet should be squeezed from cylinder to throat to forcing cone to bore for best accuracy. Eric will take the .5" from the muzzle end most likely, leaving the forcing cone alone. Unless you want to pay for extra machining processes. BTW, I'm the other Ron that you haven't met....Matt- I have 26 records of different Dans that I've measured....
Thanks for the Info. I remain just a little confused as to what you refer to as the throat. Do you mean cylinder throat? This is the forward section of the cylinder. Or, are you referring to the area just forward of the forcing cone as the throat. ( as in Taylor Throating ) I ask this because you say "The bullet should be squeezed from cylinder to throat". My understanding is that the throat of the CYLINDER should be larger than the bore of the barrel . Usually .001' larger is mentioned. Ruger was known to have cylinder throats in their .45 Colt caliber revolvers that were smaller than optimal. It is not uncommon for their owners to have the throats honed to a larger diameter and see improved accuracy as a result.
As Pops2 mentioned, I have seen mention of "Taylor Throating" being performed as a routine production process with Dan Wesson revolvers. However, just as in "Tapered bores" I am not aware of any credible documentation of this being the case.
Before signing up on the forum I read every thread available on DW revolvers. Not that long ago there was information posted not only here but elsewhere that would lead one to believe that early Dan Wessons were manufactured by High Standard. I have even seen reference to High Standard copying the Dan Wesson with the Mark 2 and Mark 3. We now know that the High Standard revolvers were in fact produced by Dan Wesson for High Standard.
I am trying to do the detective work to see just how credible the tapered bore as well as the "Taylor Throating" procedures are. I would be very surprised to come across conclusive evidence that the tapered bore was used on the Dan Wesson and would go so far as to say the same for the Python. I do know that there is tooling readily available to perform "Taylor Throating". Therefore it may well be true that Dan Wesson routinely used the technique. I would be curious to see some substantiation of this. I think the jury is out on "Taylor Throating" as it is. There seems to be two schools of thought on it's effect upon accuracy. In fact there are a couple of sources that will say the forcing cone and barrel crowning are much more of an influence on accuracy than "Taylor Throating". This is why I ask the question about the lack of crown on the Dan Wesson revolvers. I realize the design of the Dan Wesson barrel / shroud assembly does not readily lend itself to crowning.
Thanks again for the information on the bore diameter. Frankly it surprises me that they would be consistently over by .001". I would be curious what the EWK barrels would be at if slugged.
February 16, 2016
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Different Drummer said I would be curious what the EWK barrels would be at if slugged.
Maybe Eric would do one for you ?
February 21, 2011
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Correct me if I'm in error but won't slugging only tell you the tightest diameter, not where, or how that varies from any other part of the slugged bore?
Matthew Quigley on handguns:
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I didn't know how to use it.”
December 3, 2015
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mister callan said
Correct me if I'm in error but won't slugging only tell you the tightest diameter, not where, or how that varies from any other part of the slugged bore?
My answer to your question would be "yes", you are correct.
Perhaps in discussing a tapered bore, Taylor throating etc the different topics got intertwined. My request of rwsem for his results on slugging was due to my curosity of what DW actually used for a bore diameter as well as to their ability to maintain consistancy in production. A totally different topic from the tapered bore issue.
Unless I can be shown differently I am of the belief that tapered bores were not employed by DW or Colt for that matter.
I like the idea that the EWK barrel have a faster twist rate of 1:12. Whomever he gets his barrel blanks from apparently use that rate. I would love to think EWK blanks come from Walther Lothar. However, I do not think he could market them for the price he charges if they were. I am sure they are decent barrels even if not from Walther Lothar. I know that I am planning on purchasing one.
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February 22, 2009
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mister callan said
Correct me if I'm in error but won't slugging only tell you the tightest diameter, not where, or how that varies from any other part of the slugged bore?
Charles- If you were to slug the barrel by running soft lead through the entire length, you would be absolutely correct.
I use soft lead or cerrosafe to check just in front of the forcing cone and then again at the muzzle (on rifles, I use cerrosafe to cast the chamber to check leade length). Then I run the oversized slug through the length of the barrel to check for restrictions/ constrictions- you can feel the resistance. Roogar revolvers are notorious for a constriction where the barrel meets the frame. Fire lapping usually straightens that out but sometimes it requires hand lapping with a bit of bore paste.
Regarding the crown- as long as the lands or grooves aren't dinged- there shouldn't be an issue with the shape of the crown causing any accuracy issues. Different shaped crowns are cut to reduce the risk to damaging the lands/ grooves at the muzzle.
The throat is the cylinder throat. For best accuracy and the least (or no) leading, the measurements should be largest in the cylinder and smallest in the bore- as you stated. For instance- my best shooting .41 is honed to .4125" in the throats and has a bore of .410. I reload cast bullets sized at .412". The bullets obturate in the throat and then are squeezed in the forcing cone and into the bore.
Finally, I've never seen Taylor Throating on a DW, and I've seen "a few" Dan Wessons....
Of course my standard disclaimer applies---- the information is based solely on my personal experience- your experiences may differ....and that's OK with me; I'm not a millennial who has "feelings" that are easily hurt.
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
February 25, 2016
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Thanks, now I have to go google most of this so I can comprehend all this knowledge. Also have I google where to get a japanese maple tree. Set up a plywood board with stick on targets on one and shot it to smitherines. Thought it was a chicken tree...
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March 25, 2013
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My name was mentioned so I am entitled to 30 seconds. I enjoyed Lee's visit. He is a very deliberate thinker. We were pressed for time so he didn't see all the dans. Heck, I can't even remember how many I have. I may have gone overboard but the current prices are making me seem shrewder than I really am. If Hillary wins and is not put in jail she may ban Semi autos and I will look like a genius. Haha. Not happening. I seem to be somewhat in remission. I have been very busy repotting all my JAPANESE MAPLE bonsai. And others. Mine are too small to hang a target on though..
December 3, 2015
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rwsem said
mister callan said
Correct me if I'm in error but won't slugging only tell you the tightest diameter, not where, or how that varies from any other part of the slugged bore?Charles- If you were to slug the barrel by running soft lead through the entire length, you would be absolutely correct.
I use soft lead or cerrosafe to check just in front of the forcing cone and then again at the muzzle (on rifles, I use cerrosafe to cast the chamber to check leade length). Then I run the oversized slug through the length of the barrel to check for restrictions/ constrictions- you can feel the resistance. Roogar revolvers are notorious for a constriction where the barrel meets the frame. Fire lapping usually straightens that out but sometimes it requires hand lapping with a bit of bore paste.
Regarding the crown- as long as the lands or grooves aren't dinged- there shouldn't be an issue with the shape of the crown causing any accuracy issues. Different shaped crowns are cut to reduce the risk to damaging the lands/ grooves at the muzzle.
The throat is the cylinder throat. For best accuracy and the least (or no) leading, the measurements should be largest in the cylinder and smallest in the bore- as you stated. For instance- my best shooting .41 is honed to .4125" in the throats and has a bore of .410. I reload cast bullets sized at .412". The bullets obturate in the throat and then are squeezed in the forcing cone and into the bore.
Finally, I've never seen Taylor Throating on a DW, and I've seen "a few" Dan Wessons....
Of course my standard disclaimer applies---- the information is based solely on my personal experience- your experiences may differ....and that's OK with me; I'm not a millennial who has "feelings" that are easily hurt.
IEverything you say here is exactly as I have believed. Charge hole in the cylinder holds the cartridge, cylinder throat slightly smaller than the barrel bore. And yes, a person that reloads will get success by using a lead bullet that is over size and will obturate to the bore it is fired through. You can also get .356 bullets and reload 9mm for the same effect.
I also would agree that there was no taper bores and no Taylor throating performed on DW revolvers. Though in trying to remember I think what I read said it was done only on the large frame caliber revolvers. Still I doubt it.
Nice discussion. Thanks to all who participated.
February 20, 2008
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I open this thread this morning not expecting a graduate studies class...thank you , I've enjoyed it.
More discussion - mentions DW in test - interesting....to me.
http://www.grantcunningham.com/2008/08/does-taylor-throating-really-work/
If you're going to drink, don't drive. Don't even putt.
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