Register
Log In
Home
August 8, 2013
Offline
I inherited what I believe is a model 14 when my grandpa passed several years ago. It had some surface rust, so I had a local hobbyist re-blue it, and it looks fantastic. But he didn't know a ton about revolvers and he didn't headspace it correctly when he put it back together. I pulled the barrel off last year and tried to set the headspacing correctly, but I'm still having accuracy issues.
Long story short - it shoots 38 vs 357 really differently, 125 vs 130 vs 158 very differently. Almost none of them shoot to POA. Some shoot way high and right - some shoot way high and left. It's not always consistent - some shoot to POA one day and then not the next.
I'm a pretty good shot with a rifle and an ok shot with a pistol. The Dan Wesson is pretty easy to aim & fire given the really nice handle and awesome trigger, so I just don't understand the accuracy problems. Are there any tricks with these guns that I could use to make it more consistent? I love that this was my grandpa's old gun, but it's frustrating as heck to take it to the range...would really appreciate any help you guys could provide.
Supporter
Moderators
Dans Club
February 22, 2009
Offline
I don't think that you're meaning to use the term headspace but I think what you are referencing is barrel-cylinder gap? Headspace in a revolver is the space between the rear of the cylinder and the breech face of the frame. It requires shimming the cylinder if it is excessive. Additionally, headspace is slightly different between .38 and .357 due to the thicker allowance for the .357 rim. But I digress.... set the barrel at ~.003-.004" and then focus on full length brass (.357 Magnum) and not .38 Special. Whichever cartridge lands closest to POA at 25 yards is you're winner. I'd concentrate on 158 gr as that was "standard" .357 maggie fodder. The closer you are to the target the higher your group will be until you get back in to the distance where the bullet crosses the line of sight for the first time. I don't know what distance that is right off hand for the Model 14- probably around 5-7 yards or so, I'd guess... But unless you plan to target shoot with a fixed sight revolver, then MOB (mid offender's body) is as good as MOA.
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
August 8, 2013
Offline
Sorry - yes, I am talking about barrel/cylinder gap.
I normally shoot at 7-10 yards. And my standards for pistol accuracy are pretty low. If it can make a 3"-4" group roughly centered on POA at that distance, I'm happy as a clam.
I will say that I several other fixed-sight revolvers, a S&W, Colt, and Taurus. They all shoot to POA with every load I've ever put in them. This is the only one I've ever had an issue with. Maybe they were 1"-2" off at most, but that's within my tolerance of not caring about. This one is often 6"-10" away from POA, at 7-10 yards, and not just vertical - can be far off left or right as well. And the groups are not tight either.
Honestly I'm not even sure the revolver would be on paper at 25 yards.
So you're saying just test a bunch of stuff, pick the best one at 25 yards, and call it a day? Nothing I can do to the gun tweak/improve it other than confirming the barrel/cylinder gap?
I don't have an issue with using 357 mag, but I will say that as a general rule, the 38 spl seems to shoot closer to POA than the 357 mag stuff does. But as a rifle shooter, I do understand that a shorter bullet jump typically produces better groups, so that's a bit puzzling.
Dans Club
December 5, 2008
Offline
Check the barrel nut. They can loosen up after a few rounds. Also check the barrel to make sure there are no internal problems like excess leading or flaws, scratches etc.
October 17, 2017
Offline
I agree with snake-eye; definitely check the barrel thoroughly. Look for excess leading especially at the forcing cone which would be an indicator of mis-alignment of chamber to barrel, or damage to the forcing cone. It would take a lot to make a DW shoot this wildly off target. Do you ever experience particles "spitting" back at you while shooting this revolver? Check the timing: slowly pull the hammer back making sure the cylinder locks into position before the hammer reaches full cock. Are you firing double or single action? Ever experienced a mis-fire? A Model 14 fired double action would have a fairly heavy pull with the original mainspring. If it feels light; there could be a problem with the mainspring not providing an appropriate strike for consistent ignition.
When these guns are working properly they are second to none in accuracy, so something is definitely off. These are just a few ideas I can think of to check. Others may have more ideas or information for you.
Good luck.
August 8, 2013
Offline
3ric said
I agree with snake-eye; definitely check the barrel thoroughly. Look for excess leading especially at the forcing cone which would be an indicator of mis-alignment of chamber to barrel, or damage to the forcing cone. It would take a lot to make a DW shoot this wildly off target. Do you ever experience particles "spitting" back at you while shooting this revolver? Check the timing: slowly pull the hammer back making sure the cylinder locks into position before the hammer reaches full cock. Are you firing double or single action? Ever experienced a mis-fire? A Model 14 fired double action would have a fairly heavy pull with the original mainspring. If it feels light; there could be a problem with the mainspring not providing an appropriate strike for consistent ignition.When these guns are working properly they are second to none in accuracy, so something is definitely off. These are just a few ideas I can think of to check. Others may have more ideas or information for you.
Good luck.
Thanks. Yeah I'm familiar enough with guns to have checked the barrel - no lead buildup at all and the gun looks to be mint condition. I shoot single action. I'll check the timing - have not looked at that. How much before full cock should the barrel be locked? Just tried it and it locks near the back of hammer travel, but not all the way back. I can pull back and rotate the barrel and lock it in a new position (without touching it) and return the hammer back without it ever cocking.
I just dry fired double action and it is pretty heavy, so that seems normal.
Yeah when I inherited it and read about them, I was really excited, but it's been pretty disappointing so far.
Is there any merit to the idea of removing the barrel and installing it again in a different orientation? What torque should the barrel nut be tightened to? It's not a loosening issue, as it's always been like this.
One thing I noticed when I was trying to set barrel/cylinder gap, if I remember correctly is that there was a very, very slight variation in the gap as I rotated the cylinder. So when I set it at .003", it might have been tight on one side and then a hair looser on the other. I'm talking a tiny, tiny gap, but maybe that could caught this? I have no idea how you'd remedy that.
Dans Club
December 5, 2008
Offline
It's not unusual for the cylinder face to be slightly irregular. This should not affect accuracy.
October 17, 2017
Offline
I've been reading through this topic from the beginning trying to figure out what could possibly cause a DW to group this poorly. I'm really stumped. From what you've checked there seems to be no cylinder timing issues, and no spring issues. Does this Model 14 have an external barrel nut and a pork chop shroud? Perhaps some good close up photos for us to examine might help to identify a problem that you're not able to communicate to us. Unless you're shooting lead or perhaps plated bullets there would be no evidence of leading due to mis-alignment as jacketed bullets don't lead. Mis-alignment can still occur even with the cylinder in good time. There could be a problem with the crane, or how the crane is locking up. There have been rare cases where the upper crane leg has become loose and needs to be redone. When you close the cylinder does it lock up tightly at the latch point? Helpful photos would include: showing left side with cylinder closed, forward and rear facing images of the frame area with the cylinder open, image of the left side with the side plate removed.
I really hate that you're having so much disappointment with this revolver, and that we're (so far) not able to help you much with it. Let's try some photos. In the meantime try a few .38 Special wadcutters and check for leading.
Hope this helps.
October 17, 2017
Offline
Sorry, forgot to answer your question about the barrel installation. It will always be at the same orientation for any given gap. My experience anyway. Use the tool to hand tighten the nut. Just "wrist" tight is enough.
Supporter
Moderators
Dans Club
February 22, 2009
Offline
You know what? I had a horrible accuracy issue with a 41 Magnum I forgot about. I looked down the muzzle end and saw the problem- I thought the barrel was installed backwards- the end of the muzzle looked like the forcing cone end. So I unscrewed my barrel and much to my surprise- a forcing cone had been cut on both ends! Could be a barrel in backwards (huge gap most likely) or maybe yours is the second barrel with a forcing cone cut at both ends....
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
October 17, 2017
Offline
Hmmm. One more good clear photo to add to the list. Close up of the muzzle.
August 8, 2013
Offline
Thanks for the replies.
No cone at the muzzle end.
However, I did buy a feeler gauge and found out my barrel/cylinder gap is .012. Not sure how that happened. My best recollection of what happened:
When I got the gun refinished, the trigger was acting funny - really hard to pull on 2 of the 6 cylinders. I found out it was installed (by the guy who did the re-blue) with 0 gap. So I re-gapped to .003-.004. It shot poorly, and I think I tried to uninstall and reinstall in a different orientation, and probably just lost track of the gap and it ended up at .012".
I also found some of my old targets. Maybe it's not the gun....it doesn't seem to shoot as poorly with lighter bullets. I recently tried some 130 grain 38 spl +P ammo and it didn't do well, but I found an older target marked 125 gr 38 spl that was decent. I have more recently shot 158 gr 357, the 130 gr 38 +P, and some 157 38 spl, and they all shot poorly. The 130 shot left and high. 357 shot way, way high and right. The 157 38 spl shot high and right, but only about 6" from POA. None grouped particularly well. The old target was maybe 4" high, but tighter grouped.
So I guess the 2 inevitable questions are: how big of a deal is a .012" gap? and, how sensitive are these to different bullets/loads? Should they be moving left and right as well as up and down?
Supporter
Moderators
Dans Club
February 22, 2009
Offline
This is sometimes helpful:
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
August 8, 2013
Offline
Yeah...but I don't get why any of that would change from load to load? I mean, I shoot 45 ACP +P from my Colt 1911 the same way as I shoot my light reloads and don't get any change in POI. Why would I get POI movement in this pistol?
The only guns I've ever had POI issues from were fixed-sight handguns and they were off for everything - no major variation load to load. That's the curious thing here. And almost all of the loads shoot poorly. You'd think a big, 6" 357 would shoot most anything well.
December 4, 2014
Offline
In an effort to understand the accuracy issues you describe would you provide pictures or describe the rear sights on your DW. Your initial post indicated that you believe that it is a model 14 which would have a fixed rear sight but the issues that you are having seem to be similar to a model 15-2 with a broken rear sight that moves with the recoil of the firearm. Attached is a picture which shows the the difference in front and rear sights between the model 14 and model 15. The height of the front sights are different between the two models and fixed rear sights versus adjustable rear sights allows the possibility of mixed front sights and/or barrel assemblies on each model. If the rear sights are adjustable and you are able to move the notch portion of the sight with your fingers it could be the source of the accuracy issues.
August 8, 2013
Offline
October 17, 2017
Offline
From your photos it's clear that your DW is a Model 14-2. Looks to be in great condition. I see no clues from the photos provided as to why it would shoot so radically off target. That said; the .012 gap is a bit excessive, but I really don't think that would cause inaccuracy issues (S&W currently regards .012 as in spec). Reset the gap to .005 and see what happens. It could just be that the trigger release on this revolver is different than what you are used to. Try it at 3 yards. The reason for 3 yards is that it takes everything except the gun and trigger control out of the picture. Really concentrate on what you're doing. If you can't get a reasonably close group I would send it to DW for evaluation.
Supporter
Moderators
Dans Club
February 22, 2009
Offline
And, if that doesn't work it's time to check the chambers with pin gauges and slug the barrel to get some measurements....
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
December 4, 2014
Offline
Thanks for posting the pictures, it certainly takes the broken rear sight theory out of play. I agree that there are no visual ques from your pictures that something is clearly wrong that would cause the accuracy problems. The front sight is pinned and not interchangeable, the muzzle looks to be in typical condition for a revolver of it's age, fixed rear sight groove confirms that there should be no issue with rear sights. There are a few things that you might want to keep in mind while trying to figure this out.
The factory cylinder gap setting is .006", my manual states that a smaller cylinder gap could cause lead spitting. If this is happening the bullets leaving your muzzle might be slightly misshapen and unbalanced causing erratic flight even at short range.
To help eliminate other factors fire for accuracy by bench resting the revolver and firing single action.
The most likely range distance when these revolvers were developed would have been 25 yards. Shorter distances will effect your point of impact.
The most likely bullet weight would have been 148 grain for 38 special and 158 grain for 357 magnum.
When these revolvers were developed the traditional point of aim was the 6 o'clock position of the target. On an 8" diameter target my point of aim with a model 15-2 is the bottom of the target and expected point of impact is center of the target. At 15 yards I am still slightly high. It would be understandable that a model 14 marketed as a service revolver by DW would have been designed and manufactured to this criteria.
DWF Supporters
Dans Club
Moderators
November 17, 2008
Offline
Just a few thoughts that you may have already looked at but won't hurt to mention. Check barrel tube for straightness and bulges. Also check crown for burrs. DW did not like to crown muzzles so a small burr could cause issues. Good luck.
LB
Wisdom is merely the realization of how little one knows, therefore I am wise.
2 Guest(s)
