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Need a Fix- Small Frame .357
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devrodirt
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December 12, 2016 - 10:33 pm
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I bought a DW .357 years ago that was in very bad condition visually, but worked just fine.

A year of so ago I had the gun re-blued by a gunsmith.

Ever sense the pistol has had problems:  It works fine cold, but after firing just a few rounds the hammer will not cock and the firing pin sometimes does not strike hard enough to dent the primer and fire.  I can "jiggle" the cylinder and mess with the hammer to clear it up, but the same problem happens again.

I've had two other gun smiths look at the gun, they both said it was a spring problem and said they fixed it.  But the gun does the same thing.

It now seems like I am going to have to find the problem myself and attempt to fix it.

I'm interested in talking to anyone who can give me advise on this.

 

Thanks in advance,

JIM

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SCORPIO
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December 12, 2016 - 10:42 pm
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Sounds like the grip screw is too tight, back it off or remove it and try the gun and see if the problem occurs.  

Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

My father

If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.

My grandfather

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devrodirt
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December 12, 2016 - 10:50 pm
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devrodirt
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December 12, 2016 - 10:57 pm
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Another thing about this gun:

When I open up the side plate the "hand" (part 38) and the "hand spring" part 43) do not want to say in place.

I have to be very careful getting the side plate back on without the hand and hand spring jumping out of position.

Could this be a clue to the problem?

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Ole Dog
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December 13, 2016 - 8:56 am
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The hand and spring always try to jump off. The frame  and sideplate are what keep the lockwork in position. Just a little too much or little room and the gun can freeze up. Smoothing the frame and sideplate of roughness is the best way to improve the trigger besides Wolff reduced power springs. IMHO. The fact that it works cold is telling. Do you have a barrel tool? If the cylinder gap is too small as the cylinder heats up and expands it could bind and produce your symptoms. When you have the problem, unload the gun and open the cylinder and see if the action works. If it was the grip screw it would not work cold. The hand not in place would not affect your problem. The cylinder would just not turn and it would not get "better" when cool. Jiggling the cylinder frees it from being caught by the forcing cone but it catches again because of the expanding cylinder. Anything that interferes with the hammer strike can give you light strikes. I suspect if you increase the cylinder gap your problems will disappear. Small frame guns have not the most perpendicular cylinder face and one or two chambers may be rubbing. Check the gap on each chamber and set the gap at .006 on the proudest one. The one that sticks out the most. When measuring with the shim do not force it in. If you do you will push the dedent ball in and the gap will be too small. Whew!! Sorry for being so wordy. I hope I am right and it is an easy fix. 

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SCORPIO
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December 13, 2016 - 5:38 pm
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+1 to what Ole Dog said.  I didn't see the part about it only doing it when hot.  That sounds like the barrel gap is too tight and the clearance is growing closed as the gun heats up.  Set the gap as mentioned and you will likely be fine.

Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

My father

If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.

My grandfather

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rwsem
SOWELA (Southwest Louisiana)

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December 13, 2016 - 8:34 pm
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Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....

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Charger Fan
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December 14, 2016 - 12:37 am
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rwsem said
barrel gap as Scorpio points out would be my guess...  

+3 on the barrel gap.

Plus the grip screw angle of the dangle, those pesky buggers can be temperamental at times.big-grin

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devrodirt
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December 14, 2016 - 5:49 am
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Thanks a bunch guys.

Setting the barrel gap is the first thing I did.  I set it at .006.  But did not check each chamber, and maybe I set it at a tight .006.  I'll reset it and see how it does.

 

Thanks

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rwsem
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December 14, 2016 - 6:50 am
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Often the face of the Monson era cylinders weren't even.  Rotate the cylinder while viewing the gap with backlighting.  You'll want to set the gap tight on the most 'proud' (tightest gap) chamber.

Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....

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devrodirt
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December 17, 2016 - 6:43 pm
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I'm a lot closer.

I set the barrel/cylinder gap CAREFULLY to a loose .006 at the tightest chamber.

I removed the sideplate and polished the inside with a fine stone.  I found the inside of the sideplate had been blued and there were rub marks from the hammer and trigger and trigger return spring.

The action of the gun is now smooth, the hammer or trigger do not hang up like they were doing.

BUT, I am still getting light strikes and misfires.....UUURG!

If I shoot it "single action" I am not getting misfires.  But if I use the trigger, double action, I get at least 1 misfire, sometimes 2 or 3 per 6 shots.  The misfires do not happen to any particular chamber, it seems to be random.

Sometimes the round will fire if I keep cycling it through by pulling the trigger, but most of the time not.  If I cock the hammer, single action, it will usually fire.

 

Thanks for the great help so far.  Now if you can help me diagnose this misfire problem I will be one happy camper!

I am going to order a new Hand Spring and Trigger Return Spring, I suspect they have been "warped" by gunsmiths.  I'm also going to order a new Hand because mine seems to be worn, it's not exactly square-edged where it meets the cylinder.  

Thanks again,

JIM

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Bullwolf
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December 17, 2016 - 9:17 pm
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devrodirt said
I'm a lot closer.

BUT, I am still getting light strikes and misfires.....UUURG!

If I shoot it "single action" I am not getting misfires.  But if I use the trigger, double action, I get at least 1 misfire, sometimes 2 or 3 per 6 shots.  The misfires do not happen to any particular chamber, it seems to be random.

Sometimes the round will fire if I keep cycling it through by pulling the trigger, but most of the time not.  If I cock the hammer, single action, it will usually fire.

 

Thanks for the great help so far.  Now if you can help me diagnose this misfire problem I will be one happy camper!

I am going to order a new Hand Spring and Trigger Return Spring, I suspect they have been "warped" by gunsmiths.  I'm also going to order a new Hand because mine seems to be worn, it's not exactly square-edged where it meets the cylinder.  

Thanks again,

JIM  

 

Light strikes, and misfires in double action mode are often caused by one of two things.
After you have already ruled out grip screw length of course.

1. Using an older weak, or simply too light main spring.

2. To much cylinder end shake.

 

Regarding #1. ( Light or Weak Main Spring)

My Dan Wesson revolver, which was purchased used had a backyard trigger job. The previous owner cut a handful of coils off the bottom of the mainspring. It had a great single action trigger, but was pretty much completely unreliable when fired in double action mode. It took me a while to figure it out, but once I started comparing main spring lengths with replacement springs, it became obvious.

I purchased  7.5lb and 8lb Wolf main springs. Things got better with the 7.5lb spring installed in the revolver, but I still had occasional light strikes in double action mode - though not quite as many. I put the 8lb spring in the gun and things were almost 100%, but still not quite there yet.

Since Wolf did not sell a factory weight 9-10lb spring, I ordered one directly from Dan Wesson (CZ-USA Dan Wesson NY) Using the factory weight 9lb main spring completely solved my light strikes problem in double action mode.

Before putting the 9lb spring in my gun, I performed the excellent Average Joe tune up, and lightly cleaned and polished up the internals of my revolver and side plate, while it was all apart.

https://www.danwessonforum.com/forum/reloading/tuning-up-your-15-2-the-average-joe-method/

My Dan Wesson revolver functions 100% in double action mode with the factory 9lb main spring installed. The trigger is technically heavier than it was with my cut spring installed, but after the Average Joe tune-up it's also much smoother. My revolver's accuracy has actually increased with the heavier weight factory main spring installed.

Many find success using the 7.5lb or 8lb Wolf Springs. In my case, my revolver required a 9lb spring to be totally reliable in double action mode. Most of the time, if the grip screw is not causing the problem, swapping out the main spring will fix light strikes while firing in double action mode.

 

Regarding #2 (Cylinder End-shake problems)

This rarely comes up with Dan Wesson revolvers, but it still happens from time to time. I think Dan's are more resistant to end shake issues due to the way they lock up but... If you have a really loose front to back cylinder play on your revolver, some of the inertia and momentum of the hammer/firing pin strike gets taken up by the cylinder moving forward - which translates into less firing pin energy, and a weak or light primer strike.

The solution for an end shake problem is to install a cylinder end shake shim, after first making sure the cylinder ball tension (at the rear center of the cylinder) is adjusted correctly. Triggershims.com sells inexpensive cylinder shims for Dan Wesson revolvers. They are nice to deal with as well.

http://triggershims.com/cylinder_shims.html#S14

Dan_Wesson_Small_Frame_Cyl_Shims.jpgImage Enlarger

Dan Wesson Small Frame

Dan Wesson Cylinder / Endshake Shims
Our Shims will fit many Small Frame Dan Wesson Revolvers
Made from USA Full Temper 300 Series Stainless Steel
Nominal O.D. of .400" X I.D. of .314"

Fits Many Small Frame Revolvers

2 Pak   Comes in .002"
4 Pak   Assortment comes with 2 each  .002" and  .003"
6 Pak   Assortment comes with 2 each  .002",  .003" and  .004"
12 Pak Assortment comes with 3 each  .002",  .003",  .004" and  .005"
24 Pak Assortment comes with 6 each  .002",  .003",  .004"  and  .005"
30 Pak Gunsmith Special Assortment comes with 6 each  .002",  .003",  .004", .005"  and  .006"
-OR- Choose any Pak and Specify your Thickness via Drop-Down Box,
e-mail or use "Note to Seller" in PayPal

Price includes Free Shipping

Dan Wesson Small Frame Cylinder Shims

A 2-pak of cylinder shims starts at $5.00

 

Also, one of our forum sponsors on the right sidebar EWK ARMS, has a very convenient Dan Wesson small parts replacement pack for only $19.99.

http://ewkarms.com/zen8/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=67_12&products_id=19

EWK-DW-Smallpartskit.JPGImage Enlarger

EWK's Dan Wesson Small Parts Assortment contains many small hard to find parts, like roll pins, side plate screws, a spare cylinder ball, replacement hand spring, main spring, firing pin spring, and so on.

At $19.99, and it's definitely worth it to have all of these extra small parts on hand when doing a tear down, or performing an Average Joe tune up.

If you're having light strike issues, or performing an Average Joe tune up, this is a good time to check out and clean the firing pin itself, and the firing pin tunnel. You should also replace the firing pin spring while the revolver is apart.

Pieces of a broken firing pin spring can bind, causing ignition problems and other reliability issues. The EWK Small Parts Assortment contains a replacement firing pin spring and roll pin, in case you mangle the factory roll pin while removing it.

 

- Bullwolf

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Ole Dog
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December 18, 2016 - 9:59 am
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Bullwolf, hats off to you for a great and informative post. It should maybe be pinned. I  was going to talk about the mainspring but you have everything covered. One opinion, the Wolff reduced power trigger return spring is really great. IMHO the best thing you can do for the smoothness of the action. If you get light strikes with the 8lb spring you can always go to the factory spring. If the hand is working properly I would leave it alone. Dan Wesson will not sell a hand unless it is to an FFL or gunsmith. It is a factory installed item. You will have shipping and labor too. Snake-eye and I bought a bunch of parts that we make available very reasonably to members. Snake eye handles it. He has the springs and hand. If you can fit the hand yourself it is the way to go. The small parts kit from EWK  will have the springs and other stuff but not the hand or a Wolff return spring I so highly esteem. I would get the Wolff Springs and EWK. Then you get 71/2,8+9 lb mainsprings. Get the hand from Snake-eye. If you really need one. 

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devrodirt
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December 18, 2016 - 2:54 pm
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WOW! Bulwolf, THANKS a lot for your time and effort in writing all that!

I'll get working on all this.  I think I need to check the cylinder end shake.  

The gun worked perfectly before it was taken apart to be blued.  Maybe something in the cylinder end ball was not put back together right, or missing all together because I do seem to have a fair amount of front/back cylinder play.

 

Thanks to you to Ole Dog.

You guys are just great!

JIM

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devrodirt
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December 18, 2016 - 7:00 pm
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It's kinda hard to measure the cylinder end play, but the best I can measure it's .009.

Is that too much?

 

JIM

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rwsem
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December 18, 2016 - 8:20 pm
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.009" after the cylinder is shut??  If so, that's way too much.

Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....

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Bullwolf
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December 18, 2016 - 9:41 pm
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There’s a great thread on the Dan Wesson forum about cylinder end shake shim usage.

Link
https://www.danwessonforum.com/forum/revolvers/cylinder-fore-and-aft-travel-on-model-15-wear/

Here's a parts diagram, with location and part numbers for the cylinder alignment ball.
Click on the image to enlarge it.

 

DanWesson_15_schem_Cyl_Ball.JPGImage Enlarger

#19 Cylinder Aligning Ball
#20 Cylinder Align Ball Spring
#21 Aligning Ball Screw

Zoomed in view.

DW-Diagram-Cly-Align-Ball.JPG

The Cylinder Aligning Ball Spring #20

Places tension on the Cylinder Aligning Ball #19

The Align Ball Screw #21, adjusts the amount of tension applied to the spring and ball.

 

Thanks for the compliments gang. It's gets a lot easier after you've done it a couple times.
Hopefully the link and parts diagrams will help it all make sense.

 

- Bullwolf

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devrodirt
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December 19, 2016 - 9:28 am
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.009 with the cylinder shut.  And me pushing the cylinder back against the aligning ball as far as it will go.

The aligning ball pushes the cylinder forward, it seems to me I need the cylinder to be positioned back towards the firing pin.

I've ordered the shims.  Also ordered the small parts kit and a few other do-dads.

Thanks for the diagram Bullwolf, but how do I know how much tension to put on the aligning ball?

That's the same for the grip screw; How do I know the proper length and torque to put on this screw?

 

I am probably done messing with this thing until parts arrive.

Keep the advise coming!!!   

What gets me is the gun worked fine and dandy for a good 1000 rounds before I had it re-blued.

thanks,

JIM

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snake-eye
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December 19, 2016 - 2:02 pm
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Someone will correct me if I am wrong but I think you measure the cylinder play front to rear without compressing the cylinder aligning ball. The purpose being to measure how far forward the cylinder will move under pressure from the firing pin, thereby absorbing the momentum of the firing pin and causing a light strike on the primer. If the play is greater than .001 or .002 under this method, then it is probably too much and shimming is needed.

Generally, the aligning ball tension is set by turning the aligning ball screw in until it is even with the top of the screw hole.

As for the grip screw. There are 2 lengths for use with various type grips. For a small frame (.357) the shorter screw is most commonly appropriate. In any case, a rule of thumb would be that the screw should not need to be tightened more than 10 full turns once it starts into the frame post. As previously mentioned, when the screw goes too far into the frame post, it will interfere with the main spring and cause problems mainly with double action function.

Hope this helps.

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devrodirt
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December 19, 2016 - 2:20 pm
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How do I get the Ejector Rod and Extractor out of the cylinder???

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