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January 12, 2012
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From not being too successful
as a investigator of the NYPD DW Model 11, a question developed within myself concerning this particular cop-gun. The Dan Wesson Company was just getting up and running during the years of 1970 and 71. There were only two DW Models at that time, the 11 & 12 and both in .357 caliber. As all of the members here are aware of these two early DW's had a different profile from other, more established revolvers. The exposed knobby barrel-nut comes to mind first followed by the swan-neck shaped barrel shroud. Some of you refer to this as a porkchop shroud which is probably more appropriate. But the bottom line was that the Dan Wesson six-gun was yet to be established with civilian handgun shooters as well as the law enforcement agencies in 1970-71. Now, here in February 2012, this Model 11, for me, has no equals in the accuracy department
for a 4-inch fixed sight service revolver! None! I grew to love the Buck Rogers look
but the most important issue of the day was close groups on the target which leads me to this;
the early Dan Wesson Model 11 had not been around long enough to establish itself as the quality six-gun that it is. Why would the NYPD have selected the DW Model 11 as its third of three handgun choices for new rooks coming on board in 1971?
What testing took place prior to the DW selection being made?
Someone at NYPD field-tested the Model 11 before approval was given and gave it good marks. But the newness factor of the DW Company and product at that time should have caused some concern among senior leadership for the NYPD. Smith & Wesson and Colt
was the two U.S. heavyweights in cop guns in 71 so my thinking was a third separate Firearm and Firearms Company was selected outside the big two. This to keep things in balance and perhaps cause some concern at S&W and Colt about their line and price to the NYPD. This is all speculation, but it makes sense when you think of the new kid (DW) on the block underselling the two older kids on the block in firearm sales.
I do know that the majority of the NYPD Range Officers at Rodmans Neck Range preferred the Model 10 and pushed it over the Colt Metropolitan MK III and the DW Model 11 back then, big time, but in the end the rook made the selection. A kid in his 20's is, for the most part, not advanced enough yet in firearms knowledge to what makes for a good service revolver then or a good pistol now.
No slam cause I wuz there a long time ago (1971).
But this would account for the low numbers of .38 Model 11's being sold to new NYPD cops in 71 I'll betcha!
So I'll quit dragging this on as I think my "beloved" Model 11 didn't get a good chance back then to show off its shooting skill on the range. But there are a lot of questions to the early DW History unanswered and/or validated. But thanks to the core group here, one day, all of us starving for DW History Info are going to be filled to our hearts content. A gun (DW) this good ain't going quietly into the night and these questions we wrestle with and debate on "will" be realized.
Thanks my friends vey much………..David
November 14, 2009
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Very interesting story and thought on the Model 11. Thanks for taking the time to share it with us.
Happyness is a Hot DW and a pile of used brass!!! Rich
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December 4, 2011
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I'm guessing here, but I'd bet that one or two things happened to get DW on the map at NYPD. First, if Daniel B. Wesson was a good business man, and I think that he was, he would have given a few guns to people in key positions at the NYPD for evaluation, free of charge. Second, I think he would have realized his underdog status amongst the likes of Colt and S&W and would have, out of necessity, had to compete on price since reputation was basically unknown. But I think the entrenched establishment at the NYPD probablly resisted the new kid on the block and stuck with the tried and true, but did offer Dans as a price item for rookies.
Thats my uneducated guess on that anyway.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
My father
If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.
My grandfather
May 17, 2010
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Well I would suggest that just looking at the history of both S&W and DW, would go aways to at least hinting what might have happend;
In 1964 S&W was bought out by Bangor Punta Corp. Though I cannot find that now either on Wikipedia nor the S&W web site.
Here is a short interesting link on BP: http://www.gjenvick.com/BangorPunta/Corporate/BangorPuntaCorporation-InANutshell.html
Now Bangor did not care one flip about S&W other than as a cash cow. Basically they were the Corporate raiders of their day. With the Wessons shut out of the birthright, and left only with a small company that made? serviced the milling machines. The story is that this is why DW was started.
Wiki Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_B._Wesson_II
I can certainly see a very "union" friendly state like NY that watched as S&W was being run by bean counters start to consider other vendors for thier service revos. And if one of those happens to be the great-grandson of the founder of S&W ... well so much the better. I am sure that Wesson did all he could to influence NYPD, but Bangor could write off an entire arsenal and still make money on boats and planes ... and cotton oil. I suspect that by 1970 S&W was probably feeling the pinch of the bean counter crowd. At any rate, by 1984 Bangor Punta was defunct.
Anyway.. I prefer to see it that way... truth or not...
Soap Box, Ballot Box, Ammo Box
in that order.
4 Monson Model 15's
1 Palmer FB 15
1 Rossi 357 Model 92 (lever)
1 CZ 75B
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December 4, 2011
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Thats an interesting link Pinetor, I never knew that Bangor Punta owned Luhrs Marine or Piper. Your theory on the NYPD/DW connection is probable.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well.
My father
If a man designed it, and a man built it, then a man can fix it.
My grandfather
February 11, 2010
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Pinetor said:
Well I would suggest that just looking at the history of both S&W and DW, would go aways to at least hinting what might have happend;
In 1964 S&W was bought out by Bangor Punta Corp. Though I cannot find that now either on Wikipedia nor the S&W web site.
Here's some info :
In 1948 Wesson had also formed his own company which was a tool and die company. He would soon need this to fall back on as when Smith & Wesson was acquired by Bangor Punta in 1966, Wesson resigned from the company and his company D.B. Wesson became Dan Wesson Arms. Anti-gun hysteria was at a peak during those years resulting in the Gun Control Act of 1968. Two years later Dan Wesson Arms introduced their first revolver, the Model 12 chambered in .357 Magnum. That first Dan Wesson had several radical ideas never offered before.
Full story : http://www.sixguns.com/BookOfThe44/bot44c31.htm
In 1965, the Wesson family sold the company to Bangor Punta Corp. and, in that same year, Smith & Wesson developed the Model 60, the first all stainless-steel revolver.
Full story : http://scripophily.net/smitwesfirco.html
In the meantime, Smith & Wesson had been purchased by a conglomerate named Bangor Punta. In 1970, Bangor Punta also purchased 54% of Taurus. Thus, the two companies became "sisters". Smith & Wesson never owned Taurus.
Full story : http://www.taurususa.com/history.cfm
-Blacktop
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